Tithing Settlement

[WaterCat]

fuegote has faith in his leaders and therefore is a murderer.

That is called trolling.

[fuegote]

Originally Posted by WaterCat

fuegote has faith in his leaders and therefore is a murderer.

That is called trolling.

wow, where did that come from?

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

SteelBlue,

With all due respect, you're wrong....

Joseph didn't always approach the family first (infact, he very rarely did), he married several of the women without the knowledge or consent of their husbands (In some cases while the husbands were serving missions for the church). moreover, he married them without Emma's consent or knowledge.

Upon re-reading my post I have to agree with you. I did assert that in each case he had the consent of both. My response was typed at work and in a very few spare moments. What I was trying to get across was that he tended to approach the family first or have somebody else approach the women on his behalf. I would argue that in many cases he had permission to approach the woman from family. I understand that there were cases in which this was not true.

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

Really, my only problem with polygamy, and especially this particular form of polyandry, is the dishonesty associated with all of it! Joseph and his initiates lied to their spouses, decieved the spouses of those women they took, and lied to the church at large for better than thirty years. If I can't trust the prophet to tell the truth to his spouse, or to the body of the church about somethng as important as polygamy... it all kind of dissolves for me.

I of course had the same initial reaction. I was sickened to learn that this occured and felt a bit angry that I had grown up in the church, yet reached the age of 28 before learning of polyandry. It is of course the much easier argument to say that Joseph concocted the whole doctrine to get women. Yes, he lied to Emma (sometimes directly, other times delaying the truth; same thing) and yes, from the pulpit he denied the practice. YES, this looks horrible. Yes, it is very difficult to come to terms with. But, I personally have.

Imagine that Joseph WAS commanded to take additional wives. Then imagine that it is revealed to him some of the women he is to approach. Is there any way to accomplish this task without looking like an adulterer to most people? The answer is simply no. I believe that this is what Joseph referred to when he said at times that if he taught all of the doctrine that had been revealed to him, that some of his best friends would seek his life. It was either a very heavy burden or an evil trick. I choose to believe it was a heavy burden that he often tried to postpone. I understand that he did not always have the heart to tell Emma exactly what was going on and when exactly it was going on. But I do believe that he did what he believed God commanded him to do. I think that polygamy and polyandry specifically was what he was referring to when he said:

"You don't know me: you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself. I never did harm any man since I was born into the world. My voice is always for peace."

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

It all makes me very sad...I guess.

I know where you are coming from. It is difficult to feel that way and then face the fact that most people in the church don't know much if anything about it. But, as I said, I've come to terms with the practice. I'm glad I wasn't there in those times, but I kind of feel like I went through the same process that some of the men back then did. I knew a Joseph who would/could never have done those things. When I first learned that they did occur it was a very difficult thing to hear and to bear. But I feel stronger now knowing what really happened. As crazy as it may sound, I have a deeper respect for Joseph than I did before. I can understand how people feel differently. I can only speak for myself.

[WaterCat]

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

Why would I do that. If nothing else the church helps make responsible citizens and good husbands and wives out of very ordinary people. I won't take from them their peace...the world was a much better place before finding out about Joseph's polyandry, the book of Abraham, the Kinderhook plates, etc., etc. etc.

Fuegote, you do know that it's people like you that shout "god is good" just before blowing themselves up in crowded shopping malls to smite the infidels, don't you? You do know that it's people like you that tortured and killed thousands of people at the request of the proph...err, pope during the spanish inquisition? And you must know that it was people exactly like you that cut the throats of women and young children at mountain meadows, don't you?

But, hey, if the prophet says so...

I call that a cheap shot by Iluvatar. I call that trolling.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

Fuegote, you do know that it's people like you that shout "god is good" just before blowing themselves up in crowded shopping malls to smite the infidels, don't you? You do know that it's people like you that tortured and killed thousands of people at the request of the proph...err, pope during the spanish inquisition? And you must know that it was people exactly like you that cut the throats of women and young children at mountain meadows, don't you?

But, hey, if the prophet says so...

Just when I was beginning to think that you were looking for reasoned discussion... There's no need for ad hominem attacks. FWIW, I don't believe for one second that fuegote is the type of person who will blindly follow any command. I think he's made it quite clear that he seeks for a personal witness. He has stated that were he to receive such a witness, he would obey.

[fuegote]

Originally Posted by Iluvatar

Fuegote, you do know that it's people like you that shout "god is good" just before blowing themselves up in crowded shopping malls to smite the infidels, don't you? You do know that it's people like you that tortured and killed thousands of people at the request of the proph...err, pope during the spanish inquisition? And you must know that it was people exactly like you that cut the throats of women and young children at mountain meadows, don't you?

But, hey, if the prophet says so...

I loved how you added this part after I read the post. I hope that was worth it. I have no heard it all. I'm now a terrorist because I believe...er...wait....

how many posts did I say I would receive my own witness...oh yeah, every one.

Thanks for trolling. This "uniquely profound or enlightening take" of yours just shows your true colors and I thank you for strengthening my testimony.

[Surfah]

Holy crap. My first religion post I read and wow... :shock:

FWIW, I hate tithing settlement. Not the principle or an interview to determine my obedience and be made accountable, but because I am the ward clerk in my ward and my 6 hour sundays are just a bit longer this time of year.

[ute4ever]

Well Iluvator, to go back back back back back to your first post about your bishop's opinion that your house would be given to a larger family, I would ask him if a young married couple is not supposed to prepare for the future by building a house large enough for a full family.

Or are you supposed to live in a small apartment, then move into something larger when you have one child, then move again when you have two, then move again when you have three, etc. All the time renting, because taking the hit of negative equity with each move would certainly keep you in the hole.

So we need to plan for the future in terms of food storage, but only live in the present when it comes to housing.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Well Iluvator, to go back back back back back to your first post about your bishop's opinion that your house would be given to a larger family,

That is soooooo page 1.

[fuegote]

My wife and I, as well as our two kids can't wait to get a piece of that house too

We'll need to have more kids so we will get even a larger house.

all TIC.