A MORE interesting discussion about FLDS - Page 6 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Spaz · 04-18-2008, 05:25 PM

Yes, this thread has absolutely gotten very much off-course.

Oh well, the original discussion was pretty much talked out, methinks.

Indy Coug · 04-18-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

....but no proven descendants is the elephant in the room, I think.

What elephant is that?

RC Vikings · 04-18-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

33+ wives and no proof of kids. We know he wasn't shooting blanks, based on Emma's pregnancies.

Could he have used a super-efficient birth control method? How common were condoms in the American frontier? Seems sort of doubtful.

Maybe he didn't have relations with most of them.

Maybe he didn't have relations very often, and by chance, did not produce off-spring.

Perhaps activity occurred, but not the sort that leads to pregnancy.

I don't know what the answer is....but no proven descendants is the elephant in the room, I think.

Maybe he never let the little guys build up their numbers enough to make a full charge.

MikeWaters · 04-18-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

What elephant is that?

Some say that JS wantonly desired and had sex with many women, hence a manufactured doctrine of polygamy.

Lots of sex, but no offspring in the early-mid nineteenth century? Seems unlikely.

Lack of offspring is the elephant in the room with the "wanton-sex" hypothesis.

BYU71 · 04-18-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Some say that JS wantonly desired and had sex with many women, hence a manufactured doctrine of polygamy.

Lots of sex, but no offspring in the early-mid nineteenth century? Seems unlikely.

Lack of offspring is the elephant in the room with the "wanton-sex" hypothesis.

Most strong leaders have a strong sex drive.

MikeWaters · 04-18-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU71

Most strong leaders have a strong sex drive.

Harold Bloom described JS's sex drive as very healthy. He basically praised it. He seems to have low regard for the celibate ascetic types.

SteelBlue · 04-18-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Some say that JS wantonly desired and had sex with many women, hence a manufactured doctrine of polygamy.

Lots of sex, but no offspring in the early-mid nineteenth century? Seems unlikely.

Lack of offspring is the elephant in the room with the "wanton-sex" hypothesis.

How exhaustive has testing been? This link has some interesting info:

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/DNA.htm

One brief quote:

Quote:

Because Joseph Smith practiced polygamy in relative secrecy, the details of children he may have fathered by his plural wives is uncertain. In a 1905 speech at Brigham Young University, Joseph's wife, Mary Elizabeth Rollins explained, "I know he [Joseph] had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." ("Remarks", April 14, 1905, BYU Lee Library).

Her credibility suffers somewhat with her statement that she knows he had 6 wives as he had many more.

MikeWaters · 04-18-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

A fourth, Josephine Rosetta Lyon (daughter of Sylvia Sessions Lyon), is still under investigation after five years of scrutiny, he said. But Y chromosome evidence, used to determine paternal relationships from father to son, is not present for Lyon because she is female. The effort to determine Lyon's parentage has cost more than $100,000 to date.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600137517,00.html

hyrum · 04-18-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Adam, so I am reading on Wikipedia that there is no known blood descendant from any of JS's 33 to 48 plural wives.

What is the explanation for that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Wa...r_Day_Saint%29

Explanation: Wikipedia is not a reliable source, the mullahs can edit.

Read the account of Fanny Alger. Eventually she had to move away, because, according to one account. she could "no longer conceal the consequences" of her relationship with Joseph Smith. What do you think the consequence she couldn't hide was?

MikeWaters · 04-18-2008, 07:38 PM

Does Fanny Alger have surviving descendants?

It would seem improbable to me that JS would not have had sex with any of his polygamous wives.

But it also seems improbable that he would not have fathered a single child if he had sex with all or most of his wives?

Does this make sense?

04-18-2008, 05:25 PM	#51
Spaz Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,371	Yes, this thread has absolutely gotten very much off-course. Oh well, the original discussion was pretty much talked out, methinks. __________________ "My days of not respecting you are certainly coming to a middle." -Malcolm Reynolds "It doesn't mean that if we lose a game or when we lose a game people won't then jump on and say the quest is over. Because they will. But they've missed the point." -Bronco Mendenhall on "The Quest"

04-18-2008, 07:38 PM	#60
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Does Fanny Alger have surviving descendants? It would seem improbable to me that JS would not have had sex with any of his polygamous wives. But it also seems improbable that he would not have fathered a single child if he had sex with all or most of his wives? Does this make sense?