The zealot defenders of blacks and the priesthood - Page 6 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

pelagius · 05-10-2007, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

On the contrary, it illustrates that God sometimes commands things that seem unfair, irrational, wrong, bad, evil, whatever ...

Or we can apply the Cougarguard standard and assume that Samuel was completely off his axle, and that God was dinking around in the heavens waiting for a prophet he could count on.

That's not what the guard argues. We clearly blame the Deuteronomistic Historian in this specific case and whenever we can. He is the BRM of the Old Testament for us.

Indy Coug · 05-10-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Or the church sending a team of geneologists to South Africa to search through members' ancestors to ensure that there was no black blood prior to allowing them to go to the temple.

Regardless if the membership of the church didn't perfectly carry out the will of God or not, I think it's clear that God has done things that might be viewed as racist or sexist by others.

Obviously He isn't racist or sexist, but that's how He gets characterized given our own perception of morality and a lack of understanding of how and why God works.

pelagius · 05-10-2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Regardless if the membership of the church didn't perfectly carry out the will of God or not, I think it's clear that God has done things that might be viewed as racist or sexist by others.

Obviously He isn't racist or sexist, but that's how He gets characterized given our own perception of morality and a lack of understanding of how and why God works.

Well, at least no one can say God discriminates against Eunuchs. They are a pretty vocal group these days:

Quote:

4 For thus says the Lord: To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, 5 I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. -- Isaiah 56:4-5

MikeWaters · 05-10-2007, 08:33 PM

I think that anyone who believes the Old Testament is a literal rendering of God's will...well, I have a bridge to Kolob that I would like to sell you.

Jeff Lebowski · 05-10-2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Regardless if the membership of the church didn't perfectly carry out the will of God or not, I think it's clear that God has done things that might be viewed as racist or sexist by others.

Interesting response. Are you conceding that the priesthood ban may not have been the will of God?

Tex · 05-10-2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think that anyone who believes the Old Testament is a literal rendering of God's will...well, I have a bridge to Kolob that I would like to sell you.

I knew someone would choose option B.

UtahDan · 05-10-2007, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelagius

For thus says the Lord: To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths... shall not be cut off

Uhhhhh.....heh heh heh heh heh..........that was cool. (Think Butthead).

pelagius · 05-10-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Uhhhhh.....heh heh heh heh heh..........that was cool. (Think Butthead).

Who knew, apparently God likes puns. (Actually, I have no idea if it is a pun in Hebrew but there is lots of wordplay in the Old Testament which is another reason why MW shouldn't trust it.)

OrangeUte · 05-10-2007, 08:55 PM

I have been avidly interested in this issue for many, many years. Having served a mission in Africa, I was drawn to the history of this issue by the many questions I was posed, both from white and black members and non-member investigators. I think the points you have made are very well taken.

I only write to offer the suggestion that this issue cannot be understood outside of its context of an American Church that came into being and was in its formative years during a time of significant racial tension with the civil war, reconstruction, Jim Crow, and ultimately the revitalized Civil Right's Movement starting in the 1950's.

I am of the opinion that this was a practice and not a doctrine, and a work edited by Lester Bush and Armand Mauss titled "Neither Black Nor White" provides an interesting, although not perfect, analysis of the issue in terms of whether it is a doctrine or a practice. That being said, it seems to me that this practice was really more of an outgrowth of the church's formation and development and ultimate spreading throughout the world, than it is the product of a group of premortal spirits who couldn't make up their mind so they were sent to earth and placed into cursed bodies. I reject that this is a doctrine, and would point out Elijah Abel, a man of African descent, who received the priesthood during the early years of the church, and who was a close friend of Joseph Smith.

One last point is that the worldwide, as the church spread, particularly in South America, there were baptisms of individuals with mixed ancestry and containing African bloodlines. What was the church to do as this was becoming more common?

As I said at the beginning - this is a fascinating topic!

Jeff Lebowski · 05-10-2007, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

I knew someone would choose option B.

You were born in the wrong era, Tex. You could have made a solid career defending slavery. On biblical grounds.

05-10-2007, 08:55 PM	#59
OrangeUte Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 748	Fascinating - practice or doctrine? I have been avidly interested in this issue for many, many years. Having served a mission in Africa, I was drawn to the history of this issue by the many questions I was posed, both from white and black members and non-member investigators. I think the points you have made are very well taken. I only write to offer the suggestion that this issue cannot be understood outside of its context of an American Church that came into being and was in its formative years during a time of significant racial tension with the civil war, reconstruction, Jim Crow, and ultimately the revitalized Civil Right's Movement starting in the 1950's. I am of the opinion that this was a practice and not a doctrine, and a work edited by Lester Bush and Armand Mauss titled "Neither Black Nor White" provides an interesting, although not perfect, analysis of the issue in terms of whether it is a doctrine or a practice. That being said, it seems to me that this practice was really more of an outgrowth of the church's formation and development and ultimate spreading throughout the world, than it is the product of a group of premortal spirits who couldn't make up their mind so they were sent to earth and placed into cursed bodies. I reject that this is a doctrine, and would point out Elijah Abel, a man of African descent, who received the priesthood during the early years of the church, and who was a close friend of Joseph Smith. One last point is that the worldwide, as the church spread, particularly in South America, there were baptisms of individuals with mixed ancestry and containing African bloodlines. What was the church to do as this was becoming more common? As I said at the beginning - this is a fascinating topic!

05-10-2007, 08:33 PM	#54
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I think that anyone who believes the Old Testament is a literal rendering of God's will...well, I have a bridge to Kolob that I would like to sell you.