My opinion on the change in the honor code

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by DrumNFeather

Virginia's honor code is a lot more about academic honor than anything else. BYU's is all encompassing.

True- but why does that matter? It works quite well for them in maintaining academic integrity. Students, by and large, don't cheat. They take tests outside of classrooms and the only check on them is themselves. I think this teaches the students far more about discipline and honor than BYU's code does. BYU's code doesn't teach someone to do what is right because they know it is right, it teaches them to do what the school says because they are afraid of the consequences.

If the honor code works for academics at Virginia, why couldn't it work with the students in all other aspects at BYU?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

There's no honor in keeping the terms of a signed or verbal agreement with another party?

Sure there is, but there is less "honor" when you only do it out of fear rather than when you do it with nobody watching over your shoulder.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Sure there is, but there is less "honor" when you only do it out of fear rather than when you do it with nobody watching over your shoulder.

I suspect these guys are more akin the McCarthys and peeping toms, wanting to ensure they have a good compilation of porn and sex stories.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I'm sure that most schools have mechanisms for expelling students. THat is, students must meet a bare minimum of conduct. THings like cheating, fraud, violence, etc.

An honor code is something that is voluntary, that one commits to on one's "honor."

What is particularly offensive about this BYU code of conduct is stuff that has nothing to do with righteousness or moral living or being a good citizen.

Like how long your sideburns are.

There are too many different arguments being made here. I'm not defending all of the particulars in what presently constitutes the BYU Honor Code. I'm not defending how the Honor Code Office works in some instances.

Whether or not one agrees with the semantics of "Honor Code" and "Code of Conduct", there is no doubt that the BYU Honor Code is understood to be a Code of Conduct, for which there are consequences for failing to abide by it.

BYU, as a private university, is perfectly within its rights to set the standards and conditions whereby students may continue to attend their university. Students understand this, and agree to this. To out of one side of your mouth to support the notion of some form of Honor Code/Code of Conduct and then out of the other side of your mouth to argue against BYU having any mechanism in place to enforce this is sheer lunacy.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I suspect these guys are more akin the McCarthys and peeping toms, wanting to ensure they have a good compilation of porn and sex stories.

Robert Hansen comes to mind. Religious zealot, but in reality a sexual deviant and national traitor.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Sure there is, but there is less "honor" when you only do it out of fear rather than when you do it with nobody watching over your shoulder.

FEAR? Students agree to the standards PRIOR to enrolling at BYU. Is there some Danite standing behind the student in their home forcing them to enroll at BYU and agreeing to abide by its standards?

They don't agree to live the Honor Code under duress, so there is honor in living according to the standards of the university.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

There are too many different arguments being made here. I'm not defending all of the particulars in what presently constitutes the BYU Honor Code. I'm not defending how the Honor Code Office works in some instances.

Whether or not one agrees with the semantics of "Honor Code" and "Code of Conduct", there is no doubt that the BYU Honor Code is understood to be a Code of Conduct, for which there are consequences for failing to abide by it.

BYU, as a private university, is perfectly within its rights to set the standards and conditions whereby students may continue to attend their university. Students understand this, and agree to this. To out of one side of your mouth to support the notion of some form of Honor Code/Code of Conduct and then out of the other side of your mouth to argue against BYU having any mechanism in place to enforce this is sheer lunacy.

All of us recognize the legal right BYU has to impose a Code of Conduct and to enforce it with police state efficiency.

However, we argue that the history behind the motives of the current Code of Conduct and the enforcement police are misplaced and not consistent with Gospel standards. BYU's implimentation of the Code and its enforcement is downright juvenile.

It's not a question of whether BYU can have these things, it's whether BYU SHOULD have these things. It makes more sense NOT to have them. And if the Board imposes them upon students that they be done so in a wise and prudent manner, not in a capricious and arbitrary manner, as currently implemented.

[MikeWaters]

I'm saying:

1. BYU doesn't really have an honor code. They have a code of conduct.

2. The code of conduct is overreaching.

3. The mechanism of enforcement is terrible (the honor code office).

4. It is well within the bounds of good citizenship to complain/criticize the code of conduct. You don't think complaints led to the change about gays?

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

True- but why does that matter? It works quite well for them in maintaining academic integrity. Students, by and large, don't cheat. They take tests outside of classrooms and the only check on them is themselves. I think this teaches the students far more about discipline and honor than BYU's code does. BYU's code doesn't teach someone to do what is right because they know it is right, it teaches them to do what the school says because they are afraid of the consequences.

If the honor code works for academics at Virginia, why couldn't it work with the students in all other aspects at BYU?

I think that the biggest difference between the two is that one is in place to maintain the academic integrity of the institution issuing it.

If BYU were to list the reasons it had an honor code in place, I'm not sure academic integrity would leap to the top of the list.

Perhaps one reason the honor code works at UVA is that it only requires discipline in one aspect of the student's college experience, whereas BYU's requires it in every aspect of the students college experience.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

All of us recognize the legal right BYU has to impose a Code of Conduct and to enforce it with police state efficiency.

However, we argue that the history behind the motives of the current Code of Conduct and the enforcement police are misplaced and not consistent with Gospel standards. BYU's implimentation of the Code and its enforcement is downright juvenile.

So why are you arguing with me? My argument has been in response to this

Originally Posted by jay santos

My opinion: we should have the Honor Code but no Honor Code Office. There should be no snitching, policing, or booting. If it's called an "Honor" code, then the enforcement should be by one's honor.

and I'm saying that IF you want one, you need the other.