Let's stop beating around the bush

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by LA Ute

I am delighted to see you here - a guy who loves a good argument.

I think you make an enormous assumption when you suggest that "science and societal progress" favor same-sex marriage. Do you see that?

LA, I'm delighted to see YOU here. This is my lair. MikeWaters and I are spiritual brothers in a zealous bond of faith.

As I've said here previously, my support for gay marriage is rooted in the common sense fact that gays do not choose to be gay. They have also expressed the same desire and ability as heterosexuals to hold down monogomous relationships and raise children. Do you doubt either of these propositions?

I really doubt that gays would inflict any more damage on marriage than heterosexuals have. Marriage seems to have survived the greatest possible threat--no fault divorce.

Yes, this is about one word. The LDS Church does not approve of civil unions but drawing the line there would be a hopeless waste of political calital, and cpunterproductive.

The purpose of calling gay civil unions marriage is to legitimatize their life style, to put their families on the same civic footing as families headed by heterosexuals. Civil unions are precisely analogous to separate but equal.

This is admittedly ultimately about values. We all have a dog in this fight. Our very souls are at stake. It's the immutability of homosexuality that gives this issue a powerful moral dimension.

I am not the kind of person who asks questions like, why did God make gays? But to those who do, how about this: God made gays to provide possibly the ultimate test of our ability not just to tolerate but to celebrate diversity. Learning that lesson seems to me what the drama of human existence has been about, after we provide for our necessities, and perhaps the reason we are on earth.

[LA Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The purpose of calling gay civil unions marriage is to legitimatize their life style, to put their families on the same civic footing as families headed by heterosexuals. Civil unions are precisely analogous to separate but equal.

This is admittedly ultimately about values. We all have a dog in this fight. Our very souls are at stake. It's the immutability of homosexuality that gives this issue a powerful moral dimension.

I am sorry I am too wrapped up today to get into this in much detail. Quick hits:

1. When it comes to home and family, I believe it is vitally important that society promote the ideal. To me, the ideal is that each child should grow up with a mother and a father. Even in divorce situations, the children have that.

You and I will never agree on that, I suppose, but that's the value that is guiding me.

2. Your other arguments all have answers. They are here, in a very well-written brief for the Church's position:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...on-of-marriage

You will not agree, again, but the statement is excellent in terms of articulating the Church's position.

Best to you!

[TripletDaddy]

I was excited to get to know LA Ute until he linked to the press release written by the 1L summer associate.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by LA Ute

I am sorry I am too wrapped up today to get into this in much detail. Quick hits:

1. When it comes to home and family, I believe it is vitally important that society promote the ideal. To me, the ideal is that each child should grow up with a mother and a father. Even in divorce situations, the children have that.

You and I will never agree on that, I suppose, but that's the value that is guiding me.

2. Your other arguments all have answers. They are here, in a very well-written brief for the Church's position:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...on-of-marriage

You will not agree, again, but the statement is excellent in terms of articulating the Church's position.

Best to you!

the statement is excellent in putting forth buffoonish half-truths, lies, and opinions stated as fact.

Not even pelagius could defend it.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by LA Ute

I am sorry I am too wrapped up today to get into this in much detail. Quick hits:

1. When it comes to home and family, I believe it is vitally important that society promote the ideal. To me, the ideal is that each child should grow up with a mother and a father. Even in divorce situations, the children have that.

You and I will never agree on that, I suppose, but that's the value that is guiding me.

2. Your other arguments all have answers. They are here, in a very well-written brief for the Church's position:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...on-of-marriage

You will not agree, again, but the statement is excellent in terms of articulating the Church's position.

Best to you!

LA, please share with your group the linked response by MikeWaters to the LDS statement. I think it's extremely well done. I'd be interested to see a reply from the smartest grass roots supporters of Prop. 8.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showpos...8&postcount=48

[LA Ute]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

the statement is excellent in putting forth buffoonish half-truths, lies, and opinions stated as fact.

Not even pelagius could defend it.

Um, is this the way topics are discussed here? My return may be short-lived.

[LA Ute]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I was excited to get to know LA Ute until he linked to the press release written by the 1L summer associate.

If so, I am a little surprised. My time is limited and this is the sort of juvenile discussion I can get plenty of on the Ute board. Will someone please fill me in?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by LA Ute

Um, is this the way topics are discussed here? My return may be short-lived.

btw, you are the first person on this site to say that this was a wonderful press release. Not even the people here that fully support the church on this issue said it was well-written, well-thought out, etc.

So you really do have the burden on your shoulders to explain why it is so great.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by LA Ute

If so, I am a little surprised. My time is limited and this is the sort of juvenile discussion I can get plenty of on the Ute board. Will someone please fill me in?

think about the writer of the press release. He probably passed it around to a lot of people. Probably didn't any negative feedback at all. All feedback was "that's wonderful, and have you thought of adding this?" No one said, "that's unsupported" or "do we really want to say that?"

This is not that kind of place where something gets passed around and everyone pats you on the shoulder.

This is a place where sophistry is met with a challenge and a rebuttal.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by LA Ute

If so, I am a little surprised. My time is limited and this is the sort of juvenile discussion I can get plenty of on the Ute board. Will someone please fill me in?

IMO this board has plenty of juvenile and narcissistic comments. You can find plenty of intelligent discussion, but you have to pick and choose with whom and how you discuss certain topics, again IMO. Some of us that "fully support the church" tend to avoid the more strident, self-serving and histrionic posts (again, this is all IMO). SU thinks Mike's response to the press release was magnificent, I disagree (which is not to say I thought it was entirely incorrect, just that I was not nearly as impressed as SU was) . OTOH, I chose not to engage in that particular discussion because, as I have found discussing prop 8 with my neighbors, there doesn't seem to be much persuading going on on this topic, and I don't see the point in engaging in cyber-shouting about it. Even so, SU, Mike and others should not always assume silence is assent.

SO if you want reasonable discussion, I think this place is far better and more interesting than other LDS oriented sites I have found. But it is certainly not perfect. And, to be quite honest, this particular topic seems to bring out some of the worst traits of this or any other place (IMO).