What were the prophesies of GBH?

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Adam

You are right. They might be translating ancient records by the power of God secretly and not telling anyone about it. I can't prove they aren't seers.

Mosiah 8

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can atranslate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called binterpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called cseer.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.
15 And the king said that a aseer is greater than a prophet.
16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.
17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

I've provided two instances of "seeing" are they not good enough?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Adam

Hyrum points our the seer is a specifically defined term in the standard works and a title that cannot honestly be applied to any of the current "prophets seers or revelators" and he is twice attacked rather viciously. Hyrum, you may now take your victory lap.

He was attacked more for his style than his substance.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Adam

You are right. They might be translating ancient records by the power of God secretly and not telling anyone about it. I can't prove they aren't seers.

Mosiah 8

13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can atranslate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called binterpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called cseer.
14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.
15 And the king said that a aseer is greater than a prophet.
16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.
17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

So of all the things that a seer can do, you insist that they have to be translating ancient records, or they are not seers.

Men can run marathons. You have not run a marathon. Ergo, you are not a man. Sound about right?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by All-American

You have not run a marathon. Ergo, you are not a man. Sound about right?

Careful. Archaea might agree with this statement.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Careful. Archaea might agree with this statement.

Well, though I tread with caution upon the previous statement, I suppose it sufficient to say that to list the capacities of a seer, pick ONE of those capabilities, and then assume that he is not engaged in that activity does NOT prove that he is not a seer.

So unless a prophet makes a prediction about the future, he is not a prophet. And unless a seer translates ancient scripture, he is not a seer. What stipulations would you like to impose upon a revelator?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think you are missing the logical chain in the Mosiah verses quoted.

Seers interpret ancient records via the U&T. All seers are also prophets and revelators.

It does not say that all prophets and revelators are necessarily seers.

And since I have run a marathon I am a man.

I'm not missing the logical chain at all. A seer CAN translate using the Urim and Thummim. That doesn't mean he MUST translate in order to be a seer.

Check out the last verse that you quoted. That seems to be the definition of a seer. Just look at the word "seer." A "runner" is one who runs; a "writer" is one who writes; a "seer" is one who sees. And in the sense herein used, a "seer" is one who sees things otherwise hidden that God reveals to him. He can use a Urim and Thummim to perform in that role, but that doesn't make the U&T the exclusive means, nor are ancient texts the exclusive things seen.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by All-American

Well, though I tread with caution upon the previous statement, I suppose it sufficient to say that to list the capacities of a seer, pick ONE of those capabilities, and then assume that he is not engaged in that activity does NOT prove that he is not a seer.

So unless a prophet makes a prediction about the future, he is not a prophet. And unless a seer translates ancient scripture, he is not a seer. What stipulations would you like to impose upon a revelator?

You missed my point. Arch runs marathons. Better yet, triathlons. He's a real man.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think you are wrong. President of the Church is a priesthood office like Elders Quorum Instructor or Ward Clerk. Prophet Seer and Revelator has become a bureaucratic title automatically assigned to the Apostles, but was not historically so.

In Extensions of Power Quinn actually documents the history of the PS&R title being applied to different people. It has included the Church Patriarch and Presiding Bishopric at times. It excluded all but the First Presidency at times. I can't remember all the details, but the point is that the current understanding isn't eternal doctrine but rather an effort to enforce a higher level of respect for a certain group of leaders.

That's fine as far as it goes, but has little to do with Solon's scriptural and long-term historical longing for true Prophets Seers and Revelators.

You are correct. I was wrong. But my point is still valid. Solon wants something that has little to do with the office held by the president of the church (who we call, and he called in this thread, prophet). The office of president is for the only person authorized to receive revelation for the church. Not you (as hard as that may be for you to accept), certainly not me, only him. Solon longs, it seems to me, for a good old fashioned 'Jerusalem will be destroyed' type of prophecy and, because he isn't getting them, he feels like our prophets aren't prophetic. What does this have to do with your complaint about the 'bureaucratic' basis for the title P,S&R? Nothing, IMO.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Adam

Are you saying God has lost the power to speak? Are you saying we no longer need his warnings via prophesies? Are you saying he is withholding his warnings via prophesies for an unnamed reason?

Are you saying that there is a steady rate of prophecies dribbling out of heaven and if we are not getting them at that rate that we must not have a prophet? Give me a break. You understand exactly what I am saying and you are trying to be misleading here and you know it. DO you deign to understand the mind of God so as to know exactly when, how and how frequently he might choose to reveal anything? If so, then start your own church, which it what it sometimes seems you think ought to happen.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Adam

Hyrum points our the seer is a specifically defined term in the standard works and a title that cannot honestly be applied to any of the current "prophets seers or revelators" and he is twice attacked rather viciously. Hyrum, you may now take your victory lap.

First, I find it amusing that your arrogance extends to the point that you find yourself fit to be arbiter of whom should take a victory lap. That is very endearing, almost as cute as using the names of your children to show your piety and devotion (biblical names? must be a faithful guy).

Second, you know very well that this was not Hyrum's point. Hyrum has no interest in whether or not the mosiah 8 definition of seer is alive today. He wants only to ridicule and belittle and mock and I find him tedious and redundant and worth very little effort. If you want to make a point about seers, go ahead, but riding the back of his argument makes you look like a fool on a jack-ass.