Would your opinion of homosexuals change....

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You're ready to make quantum leaps.

He did NOT say, "do not judge."

He saw that it was good, or so the scribes have handed down.

Being "good" is tantamount to being "perfect"? I would have to see the Hebrew words and compare them with a dictionary, but I wonder.

And why would you intellectually make the stretch that the vessel made through evolution which was sufficiently effective for reaching salvation be the same as perfect or complete?

Since Man strives to become complete, it necessarily follows that Man was not perfect. In fact, those passages counteract your thesis.

But god did say do not judge. He told them not to eat that judging fruit that Satan was anxious for them to have. That fruit is the source of all grief in the world.

Maybe man becomes complete by finally realizing that he was already complete. Just the way God made him. Just like he told Adam/Eve/Us.

Regards,
Brian

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Find me one single quote where I said that some have a God given genetic predisposition to be gay?

I've not said that one single time. Ironically after you're mocking me not understanding what you wrote........

Yes, I understand that. I'm the one that believes that some do have a God given genetic predisposition to be gay and you're the one that believes no one does. I thought I was pretty clear.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Yes, I understand that. I'm the one that believes that some do have a God given genetic predisposition to be gay and you're the one that believes no one does. I thought I was pretty clear.

....as mud.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Brian

However, he did. See Eth 12:27:
God says: "_I_ give unto men weakness that they may be humble."



But god allowed them to be born into that family, for whatever reason. We all have a set of things to deal with and God created a perfect situation where we could come and experience life.
I have no idea why different things happen to different people, but I know that God does. And it's sometimes difficult to accept that, but I try.
For all we know some gays were bullies in heaven and so God crafted an experience for them here on earth where they could be victims of intolerance in order to learn from the experience.

God ain't no dummy, he knows what he's doing.

Regards,
Brian

You must be a triple jump expert with some of your rather large leaps in assumptions and logic there...yes for all we know there were bullies in the pre-existence that were told they would be gay.....LOL....that was funny Brian.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

You must be a triple jump expert with some of your rather large leaps in assumptions and logic there...yes for all we know there were bullies in the pre-existence that were told they would be gay.....LOL....that was funny Brian.

My point being we really don't know why various people end up in various circumstances. Everyone came here to learn a certain set of things and the circumstances were created to provide such a learning environment.

Regards,
Brian

[livecoug]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

This thread is not a good sign. It means that Fusnik is running out of ideas for provocative subjects. Is there a more tired subject on these BYU boards? The issue has been framed exactly this way countless times. Yes, the crux is whether or not this trait is immutable. Certainly among enlightened people this ought to be the issue. If someone says the answer to the question makes no difference to him, well, that's all I need to hear. It's kind of like what you knew intuitively went on in Mel Gibson's head before he got drunk and said it for us explicitly on tape.

Except for the initial couple of terse responses to Fusnik's initial post, I have not brought myself to read this thread. I for one don't care again to see the same intolerant diatribes from the same predictable cast of bitter homophobes. Their problem is not gays. They are projecting something else. Those of us who are repelled by this kind of hatred need to just try to ignore it, and simply live content in the knowledge that we are unburdened by such dark thoughts, and that among intellectuals this issue has become the litmus test that separates the enlightened from the backward. Gays provide us the service of inducing people who are secretly intolerant, because they must hide their hatred in these times, to drop the mask, to show their true character, i.e., the stripes they would have worn fifty years ago when the issue was not sexual preference but race.

lol.. thank you oh enlightened one! that might have been the most pretentious, arrogant post I have ever read.. kudos SU.. LOL

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Brian

But god did say do not judge. He told them not to eat that judging fruit that Satan was anxious for them to have. That fruit is the source of all grief in the world.

Maybe man becomes complete by finally realizing that he was already complete. Just the way God made him. Just like he told Adam/Eve/Us.

Regards,
Brian

Interesting take.

However, I for one do not agree that God ever wants us NOT to judge. For exercising judgment is the exercise of discernment.

God does not wish for us to exercise condemnation, locking a person into a corner with no way out.

So the "do not Judge" is an incorrect interpretation.

[OhioBlue]

Originally Posted by Archaea

...I for one do not agree that God ever wants us NOT to judge.

I had to read that a few times and I think I got the gist.

Your post prompted a reflection, and a question--what's the difference between discerning and judging?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by OhioBlue

I had to read that a few times and I think I got the gist.

Your post prompted a reflection, and a question--what's the difference between discerning and judging?

Excellent question. The answer focuse upon the purpose and intent of the "judgment".

It is necessary to discern, or determine or distinguish between good and evil for the direction of self.

It is not necessary to make a determination that somebody is worthless and lock somebody into a "judgment" that eliminates that person's opportunity for repentance.

A bishop must discern whether somebody is eligible for baptism at that moment in time, but if a bishop discern at one moment ineligible, he will not judge him permanently ineligible.

Now that example is probably poor, given the bishop's title is a judge in Israel, but hopefully I made my point, however how poorly.

[OhioBlue]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Excellent question. The answer focuse upon the purpose and intent of the "judgment".

It is necessary to discern, or determine or distinguish between good and evil for the direction of self.

It is not necessary to make a determination that somebody is worthless and lock somebody into a "judgment" that eliminates that person's opportunity for repentance.

A bishop must discern whether somebody is eligible for baptism at that moment in time, but if a bishop discern at one moment ineligible, he will not judge him permanently ineligible.

Now that example is probably poor, given the bishop's title is a judge in Israel, but hopefully I made my point, however how poorly.

I think I agree with that. I think, though, that in principle--or in intellectual discussion--the two are much more easily distinguishable than in lived experience. In other words, I think there is a fine line, in our everyday interactions with people and topics like this one, between discerning and judging that is made even fuzzier by the conclusions we've formed based on past experiences. It's hard not to judge at times, hard not to project our own 'stuff' onto people and/or make harsh attributions in our minds that may or may not be true.