Fawn Brodie delved into anti-Mormon literature...

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The French reject religion because of their intellectual traditions, which, whether the common man realizes it or not, have seeped into the fabric of their conciousness. Those traditions are as incompatible with Mormonism as what Catholicism has to offer, probably more so.

Where am I arguing that the French will ever accept LDS doctrines in large measure?

The French are NOT intellectuals, nor are the religious, nor will they likely ever be. It's not due to intellectual traditions, but simply due to complexities within their culture and history, but to portray them as having intellectual traditions that necessarily reject religious faith is to misunderstand the French.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

to portray them as having intellectual traditions that necessarily reject religious faith is to misunderstand the French.

Please don't oversimplify my views in this manner.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Please don't oversimplify my views in this manner.

What is your perspective on the French?

Customarily you view anybody with "culture" as having rich traditions, especially if they are not religious. That is your bent or at least how some of us construe your bent.

Even after 36 years, I can't still get a handle on the French, in light of colonial developments, warfare failures, intellectual and linguistic traditions, as well as tensions within Catholicism and Reformation, and French socialism. Additionally, there are many segments of French society and culture from Alsasse Loraine, Normandy, Loire Valley, to the Territories "Outre Mer", their relationships with Islam and conflict with Spanish and English.

What is your perspective on the French traditions?

Without researching it, where does the term "Noel" come from?

[All-American]

Question: How many gears are on a French Tank?

Answer: Five. Four in reverse, and one in forward (in case the enemy attacks from the rear).

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I was responding to Mike's put down of people who discover a rich intellectual life and find this incompatible with Mormon faith. Still, Mike's original point is accurate. In general a people becomes less religious as their overall level of education increases. Yes, this generalization does not explain the odd person who achieves a high level of education and remains religious. But the general point remains valid. Moreover, if you're talking about LDS conversion rates the inverse relationship between baptisms and education levels of prospects is even more stark.

You evince a dismayingly simplistic view of French attitudes toward their mother church. (It reflects traditional anti-Catholicism of your religious heritage.) There's no question that the French hold the perpetrators of the French Revolution in lower regard than Catholic clergy of the age, and especially Catholic clergy of today. Today if you visit the magnificent medieval French cathedrals French sadly point out damage done by French revolutionary thugs. Everyone knows about the perpetual rising and falling guillotine blades, which came ultimately to decapitate the original perpetrators of the Revolution, but that was not the half of it. Ironically, as often happens with revolutions, the French Revolution itself has come to stand for ideological and dogmatic excess. More important, whatever the Catholic Church's transgressions, and admittedly there are many, any educated person would credit the distinction between Catholicism and Islam as a but for cause of the difference between what we have become and what the Middle East has become.

French are more aware than your average American of the complex interplay between the Catholic church and the intellectual movements that made our modern world. For them it's an old story. France was arguably the cradle of the Enlightenment, and later the Romantic movement, which reacted to the excesses of the Enlightenment.

But I digress. Logically, if the LDS Church presented such a positive contrast to the Catholic Church, your point (the factual predicate of which is just plain wrong, as explained above) would lead us to expect that France, with its strong Catholic presence, should be a hotbed of Mormon conversions. It's not, the contrary is true, and for the obvious reasons. Carrying your logic further, how do you explain the virtual absence of LDS converts in countries such as Germany, Holland and Great Britain where the Protestant Reformation came to dominate, and being a Catholic involved risking life and limb long before the French Revolution?

Simple man that I am, let me try to respond.

I was merely replying to your suggestion that French education levels were a primary driver behind France's less than receptive response to the message of the restored gospel, and by extension, all religion. I suspect you agree that general French rejection of religion is a product of the complex interaction of a number of factors, including economics (Archaea touched on this) and religious history. French, as well as European experience with state religions (religious wars, The Inquisition, The Crusades, church meddling in political affairs in order to maintain wealth and power, direct correlation between noble birth and church hierarchy, etc.) has resulted in a fairly jaundiced view of organized religion and belief in God. This may be a good explanation as to why Americans, free of all this European baggage, maintain relatively high levels of religious belief, even among the more educated and wealthy classes.

I can only relate my experience, simple as it may be, that the French (in general) view religion with suspicion and as the province of the weak-minded and those that are easily manipulated. I have been told that this thinking finds its genesis in The Revolution, where the First and Second Estates were stripped of their majesty and dominance over the lives of the common man, the ultimate rejection being the decapitation of Louis VI, the “divinely appointed” ruler of France. What followed was the subjugation of the church to the state and a progressive secularization of French society. You drive home the point:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

“The French reject religion because of their intellectual traditions, which, whether the common man realizes it or not, have seeped into the fabric of their conciousness.”

I agree. The guy baking the baguettes and the woman manning the booth at La Poste, thanks to their French “education,” have been brainwashed to reject religion because of intellectual traditions that have seeped into the fabric of their collective consciousness. But without volition, can one really be considered “educated?” Furthermore, what would happen if these common people were able to free themselves of their programming?

Behold, a royal army.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

The guy baking the baguettes and the woman manning the booth at La Poste, thanks to their French “education,” have been brainwashed to reject religion because of intellectual traditions that have seeped into the fabric of their collective consciousness. But without volition, can one really be considered “educated?” Furthermore, what would happen if these common people were able to free themselves of their programming?

Behold, a royal army.

Very nice ironic touch, especially from a simple guy.