07-23-2008, 06:50 PM | #31 |
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I think Piaget and Kohlberg have more insights than santos and creekster into moral development of children.
here's a sampling: http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm |
07-23-2008, 06:52 PM | #32 | |
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"Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. |
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07-23-2008, 06:55 PM | #33 | |
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Moral development, is in part, a function of age. The moral development of an 8 year old is not the same as an 11 year old, on average. The question with the policy is at what minimum age are we comfortable with baptizing kids that are too immature. In other words, we capture all 8 year olds, knowing a certain % are probably too immature. At 7 yo that would increase. At 9yo it would decrease. At 18 yo, few would have a problem. At 30yo, certainly fewer would object. Like I said, it's a ritual and custom. Some understand it. A few will remember it. Most will probably not. That's ok. It's just an amplified version of infant baptism, it could be argued, for many children. |
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07-23-2008, 06:57 PM | #34 | |
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So will you prevent your children from being baptized until they demosntrate the sort of moral reasoninbg piaget suggests might be apporiopriate? IOW, will you wait until they are 10 or 11 to have them baptized? Seriously? I never said I had special insight, by the way, but I found Reheadgal's crtiicism of Jay's opinion to be rather self-serving. I think we are all experssing opinons here, and I am happy to discuss anyone's, but I think that type of appeal to the basis for our insight is rather useless in this type of forum. I very, very briefly reviewed the article and I am not sure it is incompatible with my own thoughts which were very inartfully expressed above. IOW, the choice from the 8 yold's world view is sufficient for the purposes of baptism. That this world view will change dramatically over the years is almost always true for every decisions.
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Sorry for th e tpyos. |
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07-23-2008, 06:58 PM | #35 | |
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If i was in charge, i might increase the baptism age to 12 or so. But based on my own experiences, I would fight tooth and nail someone who casually dismisses an 8 yo's ability to make an informed decision to be baptized. |
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07-23-2008, 07:00 PM | #36 | |
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If a kid with severe Down's syndrome or other form of retardation wanted to be baptized at 8, I probably wouldn't say no. I think as a parent, you could look at your own kid and say "in what fashion would this be the most meaningful for him/her." Often the answer will be to follow custom, so he/she doesnt' feel excluded. In some cases it may be to wait until the kid is more mature. |
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07-23-2008, 07:01 PM | #37 |
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How high are the church barriers to baptism, both now and anciently? Does that indicate to you that God expects, let alone demands, a thorough knowledge of LDS theology and/or a comprehensive understanding of how it stacks up relative to other offerings in the spritual market?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/18/1-17#1 In light of that, is there some reason why the barrier should be raised to preclude 8 year olds from being baptized? Why are we baptized? What does baptism represent? What role does baptism play in our salvation and exaltation? |
07-23-2008, 07:03 PM | #38 | |
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Based on the Pelagius probability model, you can just assume I probably know everything compared to you. |
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07-23-2008, 07:05 PM | #39 | |
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(I'll answer if it for you--1) they are less mature, and 2) 8yo is the custom (as taught by Joseph Smith)). Of course the other argument is quite simple and powerful: that's the age that God wants it, maturity notwithstanding. |
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07-23-2008, 07:06 PM | #40 | |
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The decision to be baptized is about being informed of Christ, sin, repentance, and responsibility. It is not about "Islam v. Christianity" or "Baptist v. Mormon," as some of you have weirdly assumed. An 8-year-old child who understands what it means to do wrong, what it means to be forgiven, and it what it means that Christ sacrificed himself for us is ready to "choose" to be baptized. It's interesting how you all are assuming a definition of "decision." A "decision," to Waters and the likeminded, is something that only follows the presentation of the available alternatives and a weighing of the strengths and weaknesses of each. Only in the ivory tower does such a definition apply. In reality, a "decision" is one where the moral implications are apprehended. As it relates to sin, repentance, forgiveness, and Christ, most 8-year olds are fully capable of apprehending the moral implications of baptism.
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"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
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