Stephen Robinson bicycle allegory

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

While those perils are very real, I fail to see how this removes works from the exaltation equation.

Those perils don't dictate the doctrine. The doctrine is what it is. Those perils come as a result of misunderstood doctrine, IMHO.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

While those perils are very real, I fail to see how this removes works from the exaltation equation.

Think of it this way. You need 100 grand and your dad has the credit to get the loan and you don't. Dad says you have to mow the lawn every day for a year before he will give you the 100 grand. No matter how much you mown the lawn, you haven't qualified for the loan from the bank. What you have done is fulfill the condition you dad gave you.

IOW, you can't get exaltation on your own, but Christ can give it to you. NO matter how many works you do, you never got the exaltation yourself, rather, you fulfilled the conditions that Christ placed on His giving you exaltation.

It doesn't remove works from the equation, it just recognizes the reality the those works meet the conditions Christ has set for giving you the gift, rather than those works in any way shape or form earning you the gift without him even in the least degree.

It may seem like an unimportant hair to split, but as Jay is saying, there is an important distinction there.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

While those perils are very real, I fail to see how this removes works from the exaltation equation.

Salvation is about opening the gift that is sitting there in your living room, all wrapped up, big bow, with a card that says To: Brian From: Jesus.

The BoM lists (at least) 3 stories of being born again:

1- King Benjamin's people: Active church members, etc, etc.
2- Lamoni: Heathen. Totally ignorant to things spiritual.
3- Alma: Total rebel.

These three seem to span the gamut (on purpose). All three, and works wise, they are all standing in totally different places, have to do the same thing.
1- Realize you're screwed.
2- In humility, call out to Jesus.

All three received the same thing, the gift.
Yes we are saved by grace after all we can do.
We run around like chickens with cut off heads trying to do everything.
Finally, after we have done this long enough, we realize, I'm screwed, I can't do it all. *after all we can do*
Then we notice a cool present in the living room. And we are saved by grace.

Regards,
Brian

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Think of it this way. You need 100 grand and your dad has the credit to get the loan and you don't. Dad says you have to mow the lawn every day for a year before he will give you the 100 grand. No matter how much you mown the lawn, you haven't qualified for the loan from the bank. What you have done is fulfill the condition you dad gave you.

IOW, you can't get exaltation on your own, but Christ can give it to you. NO matter how many works you do, you never got the exaltation yourself, rather, you fulfilled the conditions that Christ placed on His giving you exaltation.

It doesn't remove works from the equation, it just recognizes the reality the those works meet the conditions Christ has set for giving you the gift, rather than those works in any way shape or form earning you the gift without him even in the least degree.

It may seem like an unimportant hair to split, but as Jay is saying, there is an important distinction there.

I agree with what you're saying here, because that's basically what I've been saying all along.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I agree with what you're saying here, because that's basically what I've been saying all along.

I'm sorry it took you so long to realize this, but I'm glad we agree.

[aaronshaf]

It is through our works that we are justified.

Bruce McConkie would heartily agree with you:

"What then is the law of justification? It is simply this: 'All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations (D. & C. 132:7), in which men must abide to be saved and exalted, must be entered into and performed in righteousness so that the Holy Spirit can justify the candidate for salvation in what has been done. (1 Ne. 16:2; Jac. 2:13-14; Alma 41:15; D. & C. 98; 132:1, 62.) An act that is justified by the Spirit is one that is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, or in other words, ratified and approved by the Holy Ghost. This law of justification is the provision the Lord has placed in the gospel to assure that no unrighteous performance will be binding on earth and in heaven, and that no person will add to his position or glory in the hereafter by gaining an unearned blessing." - Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 408. Quoted without last sentence in Doctrines of the Gospel (current CES Manual).

You guys might also find interest in these quotes:

"We must turn the sins and the guilt over to the Savior in a process of complete repentance. For serious sins we will need the help of a bishop or another appropriate priesthood leader to complete our repentance. We then must let the Savior judge whether we or He must make final payment for the sin." - D. Chad Richardson, “Forgiving Oneself,” Ensign, Mar 2007, 30–33

"All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt." - James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope," Ensign, Nov. 2001, 18. Emphasis original.

Then there is Boyd K Packer's parable which is in Gospel Principles:

"Let me tell you a story--a parable.

"There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt.

"He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later.

"So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didn't worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important.

"The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come.

"But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.

"Only then did he realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owned, but the power to cast him into prison as well.

" 'I cannot pay you, for I have not the power to do so,' he confessed.

" 'Then,' said the creditor, 'we will exercise the contract, take your possessions and you shall go to prison. You agreed to that. It was your choice. You signed the contract, and now it must be enforced.'

" 'Can you not extend the time or forgive the debt?' the debtor begged. 'Arrange some way for me to keep what I have and not go to prison. Surely you believe in mercy? Will you not show mercy?'

"The creditor replied, 'Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice?'

" 'I believed in justice when I signed the contract,' the debtor said. 'It was on my side then, for I thought it would protect me. I did not need mercy then, nor think I should need it ever. Justice, I thought, would serve both of us equally as well.'

" 'It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,' the creditor replied. 'That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice.'

"There they were: One meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other.

" 'If you do not forgive the debt there will be no mercy,' the debtor pleaded.

" 'If I do, there will be no justice,' was the reply.

"Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. They are two eternal ideals that appear to contradict one another. Is there no way for justice to be fully served, and mercy also?

"There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended--but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time.

"The debtor had a friend. He came to help. He knew the debtor well. He knew him to be shortsighted. He thought him foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament. Nevertheless, he wanted to help because he loved him. He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer.

" 'I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.'

"As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, 'You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.'

"And so the creditor agreed.

"The mediator turned then to the debtor. 'If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?'

" 'Oh yes, yes,' cried the debtor. 'You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.'

" 'Then,' said the benefactor, 'you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.'

"And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken.

"The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was satisfied" (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, pp. 79-80; or Ensign, May 1977, pp. 54-55).

How does one receive the atonement?

"The Atonement cleanses us of sin on condition of our repentance. Repentance is the condition on which mercy is extended. After all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs, the Savior’s grace is activated in our lives through the Atonement, which purifies us and can perfect us." - James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope," Ensign (Conference Edition), Nov. 2001, 18.

And remember, repentance is a life-long six-step process that includes the successful abandonment of all sin, restitution inasmuch as is possible, and keeping all the commandments--the completion of which is required for forgiveness.

"The perfect relationship between the atoning grace of Christ and the obedient efforts of mankind is powerfully stated by Nephi: 'We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23). Furthermore, we are invited to 'come unto Christ, and be perfected in him.' When we deny ourselves “of all ungodliness,' then and only 'then is his grace sufficient' for us (Moro. 10:32)." - Clyde J. Williams, "Plain and Precious Truths Restored," Ensign, Oct. 2006, p. 50

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

Bruce McConkie would heartily agree with you:



You guys might also find interest in these quotes:





Then there is Boyd K Packer's parable which is in Gospel Principles:



How does one receive the atonement?



And remember, repentance is a life-long six-step process that includes the successful abandonment of all sin, restitution inasmuch as is possible, and keeping all the commandments--the completion of which is required for forgiveness.

Still using the old "cut-and-paste" methodology, eh?

Memo to Aaron: We have seen all of this stuff. When are you going to engage us in some meaningful dialog?

[Archaea]

Memo to Aaron:

Get a life. You have no knowledge of anything valuable. Stop beating your wife and child, and abuse yourself.

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Memo to Aaron:

Get a life. You have no knowledge of anything valuable. Stop beating your wife and child, and abuse yourself.

A little harsh don't you think?

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Still using the old "cut-and-paste" methodology, eh?

Memo to Aaron: We have seen all of this stuff. When are you going to engage us in some meaningful dialog?

And so you know, Aaron, Jeff here knows a guy who can discredit an argument about Tower 7 being brought down by the US Government with only a Coke can. Jeff knows all about meaningful dialog.