McConkie had the right idea, but he wasn't the man for the job

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Care to explain?

Here's a good article.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/disp...le=jbms&id=168

"More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after AD 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Constantinople."

I don't worship at the altar of Stephen Robinson (don't agree with his allegory of the bicycle), but this opinion is interesting.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

"More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after AD 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Constantinople."

I don't worship at the altar of Stephen Robinson (don't agree with his allegory of the bicycle), but this opinion is interesting.

The next paragraph is also key

"In the period between Peter and the Roman emperor Constantine, there were many Christian churches besides the Orthodox Church: Ebionites, Syrian and Egyptian churches, Donatists, Gnostics, Marcionites, and so on. Even if we use the term Catholic for the church Constantine made the state religion in AD 313, the New Testament as we know it was already widely circulating. That is, the plain and precious parts had already been removed. The notion of shifty-eyed medieval monks rewriting the scriptures is unfair and bigoted. We owe those monks a debt of gratitude that anything was saved at all."

P.S. I responded to your bicycle parable comment in a new thread.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

"More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after AD 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Constantinople."

I don't worship at the altar of Stephen Robinson (don't agree with his allegory of the bicycle), but this opinion is interesting.

That's being a little too technical. Even if it didn't go by the formal title of "Roman Catholic", its history pre and post AD 1054 matches much of what is described in 1 Nephi 13: 26-28, 34, just for beginners.

The "great and abominable" is a broad term which includes more than just a particular faith, but there is little doubt that the Catholic Church is/was a major component of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Apostasy.../dp/0875798438

[Archaea]

There is no LDS authority that will lay claim to that BS.

The Catholic Church was first not monolithic and performed many valuable services, and two not all leaders therein acted in the manner identified within the Nephite allegory.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

BTW, McConkie's assertion that the Catholic Church was the Church of the Devil was at worst partially correct.

The Catholic Church came on the scene pretty late. The apostasy went into effect pretty much immediately after the apostles began preaching to the Gentiles. They would go establish a branch of the church and immediately others would come right in behind them and change the doctrines and practices. Even just a casual reading of the letters of Paul confirms that. The Catholic Church merely picked up the pieces hundreds of years later and went from there. And yes, while there was plenty of corruption to go around in the medieval church, I think there are other groups who deserve that title as well, especially today.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

That's being a little too technical. Even if it didn't go by the formal title of "Roman Catholic", its history pre and post AD 1054 matches much of what is described in 1 Nephi 13: 26-28, 34, just for beginners.

The "great and abominable" is a broad term which includes more than just a particular faith, but there is little doubt that the Catholic Church is/was a major component of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Apostasy.../dp/0875798438

"The Great Apostasy." Now there's an impressive source. Another relic of mid-Twentieth Century paleo-Mormonism. Indy never lets me down; grapevine's older brother who didn't get his head run over by a tractor.

It's one of the ugliest books I've ever laid eyes on. "The Great Apostasy" is actually less offensive for its bigoted broadside against Catholicism than its chauvenistic rendition of late antiquity and medeival history. Someon like Indy sits here in America with the culture stuffing goodies in his mouth, and he has no idea where it all came from, history's long and winding road. And therin lies the saddest thing about religuous extremism in America, symboized by teaching like "The Great Apostasy."

"The Great Apostasy" is also very poorly written. Back on my mission I bought it, sypmathetically disposed to its content, and could hardly choke it down for the poor, amateurish writing.

Indy says the Catholic Church's character and history "matches much of what is described in 1 Nephi 13: 26-28, 34." Wow. You don't say. In a book that is exemplary for its writing and more, Fawn Brodie does a fine job demonstrating that Nephi's "Great and Abominable Church" mirrors exactly anti-Catholic nativism rife in rural United States at that time.

[Archaea]

Has anybody ever read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0882...60#reader-link

I stumbled upon it just now and was unfamiliar with it.

[Indy Coug]

So the literally millions that died at the hands of the Catholic Church and its theocratic European states and the countless other millions that were oppressed, tortured, intimidated, excluded from reading sacred texts, ad nauseum, ad infinitum, never really happened?

For a church that allegedly was Christian, how much more of the devil could you be than that????

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Has anybody ever read this book?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0882...60#reader-link

I stumbled upon it just now and was unfamiliar with it.

No. It looks right out of FARMS, though. You can read some of the same stuff on their web site.

[Archaea]

I just hadn't seen it, but it is fairly lengthy. Nonetheless the guy doesn't hype his credentials. So it made me wonder about its origins.