The Church Education System (CES) - Page 3 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 08-25-2006, 03:42 PM

at the very least BYU should require students to take one truly academic Mormon/Utah history class. If you don't learn it, you are less likely to take ownership of Mormon history. Without a sense of where you have been, then it means little to leave your heritage.

I did some work for Ronald Walker, and I came away thinking, man I would have had a much better experience reading a couple of diaries of folks in rural Utah than the classes I had taken. Make the past come alive.

UtahDan · 08-25-2006, 07:32 PM

I haven't been around CES folks that much, though I know through family one man of significant responsibility in that organization.

I wonder, for those who know better, what the parallels between CES and the clergy of other church's are. For example, it seems like a Catholic priest chooses his career for much the same reason a CES instructor does, though neither is called by God to do so.

I would think that one challenge for CES types is the fact that (regardless of whether they give it correct interpretation) they know more, and in some cases a great deal more, about the history and doctrines of the church than 95% of church leadership.

I wonder what other church there is where the people who ostensibly hold the authority are not the same people who are making a serious study of the gospel as that church understands it. Seems like there must be some built in tensions between CES and church leadership for those reasons, but maybe not. Just curious.

MikeWaters · 08-25-2006, 07:44 PM

I don't particularly see anything wrong with having paid clergy.

After all, the fulltime GA's are paid, right?

In fact, in some cases, we suffer due to no one being paid. We have inexperienced leaders who sometimes can't dedicate sufficient time to their callings to really make the ward work.

I'm not saying we have a bad system. It's just that I don't see a lot of utility in calling other systems (with paid clergy) bad. Which seems to be what we do sometimes. "We are truer because we are paid less."

I do know for a fact that we have crappier activities. But I guess that has little to do with gospel truth.

UtahDan · 08-25-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't particularly see anything wrong with having paid clergy.

After all, the fulltime GA's are paid, right?

In fact, in some cases, we suffer due to no one being paid. We have inexperienced leaders who sometimes can't dedicate sufficient time to their callings to really make the ward work.

I'm not saying we have a bad system. It's just that I don't see a lot of utility in calling other systems (with paid clergy) bad. Which seems to be what we do sometimes. "We are truer because we are paid less."

I do know for a fact that we have crappier activities. But I guess that has little to do with gospel truth.

I think there are great advantages to lay clergy. Imagine, for example, what government would be like if those serving in office were selected not because they sought it through self promotion, but did so only (and often reluctantly) because they thought it was their duty.

Of course you get a lower level of expertise in many areas, but you get the advantage of pulling in many very competent people who would never seek that job out.

I like that we have lay clergy, just so long as they know when they are out of their depth and are ready, and unselfconsciously, to point their charges in teh direction of more qualified help.

Archaea · 08-25-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I think there are great advantages to lay clergy. Imagine, for example, what government would be like if those serving in office were selected not because they sought it through self promotion, but did so only (and often reluctantly) because they thought it was their duty.

Of course you get a lower level of expertise in many areas, but you get the advantage of pulling in many very competent people who would never seek that job out.

I like that we have lay clergy, just so long as they know when they are out of their depth and are ready, and unselfconsciously, to point their charges in teh direction of more qualified help.

I agree. I'd love government if we didn't pay our elected officials. That would be much better.

No reason to denigrate other systems, but ours is fantastic. Lower expertise, but only after decades of service and only in the rarest of circumstances will somebody be paid a measely sum to serve in our Church. I hope we never have paid clergy outside of the Twelve and First Quorum of Seventy.

Frank Ryan · 08-26-2006, 04:02 AM

This is probably old news to the super-informed on this board but Hugh Nibley recieved a call from his daughter's (xenia,zenia-something like that) seminary instructor and told that she was not always attending class.

Brother Nibley said something like "Oh that is aweful! I told her not to go at all!" and then complained about the feel goody, pseudo doctrine that is taught.

Eyes of Texas · 08-28-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Brother Nibley said something like "Oh that is aweful! I told her not to go at all!" and then complained about the feel goody, pseudo doctrine that is taught.

Perhaps Mastershake would like to provide those of us who are not super-informed with some documentation on this anecdote so we can join his elite and knowledgeable faction.

All-American · 08-28-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyes of Texas

Perhaps Mastershake would like to provide those of us who are not super-informed with some documentation on this anecdote so we can join his elite and knowledgeable faction.

I can vouch for him. It's in his biography written by his son-in-law. The forward is writen by Zina Nibley Peterson, his daughter:

"A rare occasion when Daddy has answered a ringing telephone without saying 'Oh, go away' as he raises the receiver to his ear. I overhear his side of the conversation. 'Yes, this is Mr. Nibley. Yes, Martha is at Provo High School. She what? She missed what? Seminary?' He holds the phone an inch farther away from his mouth and calls to my mother: 'Dear? Is Martha taking seminary? I told her not to take seminary. Great guns, why is she wasting her time in seminary?!'"

(Boyd Peterson, Hugh Nibley: A Consecrated Life, Salt Lake: Greg Kofford Books, 2002, xviii)

MikeWaters · 08-28-2006, 02:50 PM

Sounds like Martha should have listened to her father. We all know how she turned out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Nibley_Beck

Somewhere between paranoid bitter apostate and "certifiable".

Eyes of Texas · 08-28-2006, 04:45 PM

Next thing you know, seminary will get the blame for the weirdness of the Nibley kids. Oh, wait...could it have something to do with daddy's message to his brood that they were intellectually beyond the plain and simple truths taught in seminary and that the Church and its programs are optional for the super-informed?

08-25-2006, 07:32 PM	#22
UtahDan Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Bluth Home Posts: 3,877	I haven't been around CES folks that much, though I know through family one man of significant responsibility in that organization. I wonder, for those who know better, what the parallels between CES and the clergy of other church's are. For example, it seems like a Catholic priest chooses his career for much the same reason a CES instructor does, though neither is called by God to do so. I would think that one challenge for CES types is the fact that (regardless of whether they give it correct interpretation) they know more, and in some cases a great deal more, about the history and doctrines of the church than 95% of church leadership. I wonder what other church there is where the people who ostensibly hold the authority are not the same people who are making a serious study of the gospel as that church understands it. Seems like there must be some built in tensions between CES and church leadership for those reasons, but maybe not. Just curious. __________________ The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. -Galileo

08-26-2006, 04:02 AM	#26
Frank Ryan Formerly Mastershake Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 707	speaking of nibley and seminary stuff This is probably old news to the super-informed on this board but Hugh Nibley recieved a call from his daughter's (xenia,zenia-something like that) seminary instructor and told that she was not always attending class. Brother Nibley said something like "Oh that is aweful! I told her not to go at all!" and then complained about the feel goody, pseudo doctrine that is taught.

08-25-2006, 03:42 PM	#21
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	at the very least BYU should require students to take one truly academic Mormon/Utah history class. If you don't learn it, you are less likely to take ownership of Mormon history. Without a sense of where you have been, then it means little to leave your heritage. I did some work for Ronald Walker, and I came away thinking, man I would have had a much better experience reading a couple of diaries of folks in rural Utah than the classes I had taken. Make the past come alive.

08-25-2006, 07:44 PM	#23
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I don't particularly see anything wrong with having paid clergy. After all, the fulltime GA's are paid, right? In fact, in some cases, we suffer due to no one being paid. We have inexperienced leaders who sometimes can't dedicate sufficient time to their callings to really make the ward work. I'm not saying we have a bad system. It's just that I don't see a lot of utility in calling other systems (with paid clergy) bad. Which seems to be what we do sometimes. "We are truer because we are paid less." I do know for a fact that we have crappier activities. But I guess that has little to do with gospel truth.

08-28-2006, 02:50 PM	#29
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Sounds like Martha should have listened to her father. We all know how she turned out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Nibley_Beck Somewhere between paranoid bitter apostate and "certifiable".

08-28-2006, 04:45 PM	#30
Eyes of Texas Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3	Next thing you know, seminary will get the blame for the weirdness of the Nibley kids. Oh, wait...could it have something to do with daddy's message to his brood that they were intellectually beyond the plain and simple truths taught in seminary and that the Church and its programs are optional for the super-informed?