Those of you that believe in this war...

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I couldn't vote Democrat, not unless we had a Jeffersonian Democrat, as the reason the Reps are screwing up is they are acting like wanna be Dems and the Dems will only be worse.

It's the choice between two evils with only a slightly lesser evil being the Reps. The Dems are obviously much, much worse.

If Stresenberg (sp?) of pre Nazi Germany were bad, does that mean I should choose the Nazi party just for change?

Then choose not to vote. Or vote for some third-party loser who best reperesents your views. You are right. There are other ways to hold your leaders responsible. Don't vote democrat if you can't stomach that. But don't keep supporting bad republican candidates because you are destroying your party.

[Archaea]

I am destroying my party?

No, I am being pragmatic, not philosophical. If I could lose fifty dollars as opposed to twenty dollars on a transaction, even though I loathe losing twenty I will choose to lose twenty dollars.

The Bush Medicare drugs idea was stupid, the war was ill-advised, the failure to address energy needs is ill-advised, the Patriot Act is moronic, the handling of the disasters has been bad, and so on, but

The Bush group has held the line on taxes, two apparently good Supreme Court justices have been appointed, and perhaps other incidentals.

While Clinton existed, I can think of no help for business, taxes rose, regulation rose and the general business atmosphere was illusory.

There are no legitimate third party groups. What is a third party group in a non-parliamentary system? A loser.

No thanks, I'll voice my displeasure and vote for the lesser of two evils. If a Jeffersonian Democrat existed, I'd vote that way, but the gay agenda killed Jeffersonians.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Robin

Then choose not to vote. Or vote for some third-party loser who best reperesents your views. You are right. There are other ways to hold your leaders responsible. Don't vote democrat if you can't stomach that. But don't keep supporting bad republican candidates because you are destroying your party.

Robin is absolutely correct. You have clearly become completely disenchanted with our current political climate, yet your solution is to continue patronizing that political climate by supporting a party that you find to be only slightly better than a group you equate to the Nazis in Germany.

Vote for a third party. Get involved yourself. Do SOMETHING different than what you are doing right now. If you can't stand the way things are, and yet you continue to support the way things currently are through your vote, you are doomed to remain disgruntled.

You are starting to sound like a man who is banging his head against the wall only to complain that his head hurts.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

Robin is absolutely correct. You have clearly become completely disenchanted with our current political climate, yet your solution is to continue patronizing that political climate by supporting a party that you find to be only slightly better than a group you equate to the Nazis in Germany.

Vote for a third party. Get involved yourself. Do SOMETHING different than what you are doing right now. If you can't stand the way things are, and yet you continue to support the way things currently are through your vote, you are doomed to remain disgruntled.

I've been involved at very high levels, and recognize it's not possible to effect much of a change without a groundswell of support. So don't patronize somebody loads older than you, who has already been around the block on this one. The system is broke, but will limp along, until catastrophe wipes our system clean. The only advantage we have is that most other systems are just as moronic. It's analogous to the elections between the Reps and the Dems. Nobody but the Dems could keep on handing elections to a group as poorly organized as the Reps.

The mammoth size, of the glacier makes it impossible to get involved meaningfully, unless you are very wealthy or very charismatic and devote your heart and soul to it.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I've been involved at very high levels, and recognize it's not possible to effect much of a change without a groundswell of support. So don't patronize somebody loads older than you, who has already been around the block on this one. The system is broke, but will limp along, until catastrophe wipes our system clean. The only advantage we have is that most other systems are just as moronic. It's analogous to the elections between the Reps and the Dems. Nobody but the Dems could keep on handing elections to a group as poorly organized as the Reps.

The mammoth size, of the glacier makes it impossible to get involved meaningfully, unless you are very wealthy or very charismatic and devote your heart and soul to it.

And exactly where does this groundswell of support occur if not first within the individual?

I almost get the impression you are rooting for a catastrophe to wipe our system clean...

[Archaea]

My analysis is that a groundswell is not possible.

My reading of history tells me when a society becomes so entrenched as we are, the only release is a catastrophe. Do I wish this? NO.

But this fresh out of grad school, wet behind the ears enthusiasm, informs me the 60s, we can change things enthusiasm won't work. We don't have enough good people. We are a sick people, with no energy, no motivation to do good long term.

So what does a person do? Build his own castle hoping to keep the vermin out until you pass on. Our empire is declining. Is there a theoretical chance of reversing the trend? Perhaps.

The only thing that keeps our decline from hastening is most other civilizations are also declining. China and India are the only new, fresh societies, but they have plenty to overcome. Europe is dead. Africa is not. South America can't get its act together.

Asia is the future.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Archaea

My analysis is that a groundswell is not possible.

My reading of history tells me when a society becomes so entrenched as we are, the only release is a catastrophe. Do I wish this? NO.

But this fresh out of grad school, wet behind the ears enthusiasm, informs me the 60s, we can change things enthusiasm won't work. We don't have enough good people. We are a sick people, with no energy, no motivation to do good long term.

So what does a person do? Build his own castle hoping to keep the vermin out until you pass on. Our empire is declining. Is there a theoretical chance of reversing the trend? Perhaps.

The only thing that keeps our decline from hastening is most other civilizations are also declining. China and India are the only new, fresh societies, but they have plenty to overcome. Europe is dead. Africa is not. South America can't get its act together.

Asia is the future.

Have you ever seen that Debbie Downer skit on SNL?

Cheer up. Democrats are more happy. Switch parties. I just found out I can build a potato gun for about $20. If the U.S. goes down the crapper, we still live in a beautiful country where you can go camping and where you can build a potato gun for less than $20. You can have a lifetime of happiness in this country for very little money. Stop building your fortress and start enjoying a few things.

And vote Democrat. Seriously. It is cheaper than the therapy you clearlly need.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

My analysis is that a groundswell is not possible.

My reading of history tells me when a society becomes so entrenched as we are, the only release is a catastrophe. Do I wish this? NO.

But this fresh out of grad school, wet behind the ears enthusiasm, informs me the 60s, we can change things enthusiasm won't work. We don't have enough good people. We are a sick people, with no energy, no motivation to do good long term.

So what does a person do? Build his own castle hoping to keep the vermin out until you pass on. Our empire is declining. Is there a theoretical chance of reversing the trend? Perhaps.

The only thing that keeps our decline from hastening is most other civilizations are also declining. China and India are the only new, fresh societies, but they have plenty to overcome. Europe is dead. Africa is not. South America can't get its act together.

Asia is the future.

Whether you like it or not, that kind of enthusiasm DID change the '60's (and much more after that).

It seems to me that you need a lot of enthusiasm and patience to effect change. If you burn out of that enthusiasm early, you lose any ability to effect change to a significant degree. If you maintain it through the trials, you can work wonders.

The country has enough cynics already (possibly the reason it is hard to get a groundswell of support?). I see no reason to add to that noise.

[Archaea]

If I ever want to go to the wild side, party hardy, get laid constantly by wild women, maybe I'll visit a few Democratic parties, but as long as I wish to stay professional, middle of the road conservative. I'm creating stereotypes, but like Shaq, because the Dems let you do anything, if I want to hump away, I'll do it out of the limelight of my conscience.

Life can be grand if you earn enough, have enough friends and health. Just stay out of politics.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

Whether you like it or not, that kind of enthusiasm DID change the '60's (and much more after that).

It seems to me that you need a lot of enthusiasm and patience to effect change. If you burn out of that enthusiasm early, you lose any ability to effect change to a significant degree. If you maintain it through the trials, you can work wonders.

The country has enough cynics already (possibly the reason it is hard to get a groundswell of support?). I see no reason to add to that noise.

The sixties changed all right but not for the better. Okay we got the Civil Rights Amendments which were necessary but that is all. The residue of the sixties was pure unadulterated BS. I lived through the sixties and they weren't that grand. (Well I guess we got Led Zepplin, the Beattles, CCS, and few other groups but who gives a crap about music).

This sixties created my cynicism.