Maake had a difficult situation with his family

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

PS If you want to share your sweat lodge story here, that would be quite acceptable (to the extent you feel it appropriate to share a private spiritual experience)...or, at the very least, how did you come upon the opportunity to enter a sweat lodge? I thought it was for tribe members only?

GBU is the Obama of the religious world. He's a transcendent figure.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

GBU is the Obama of the religious world. He's a transcendent figure.

Apologies, but who is GBU? It must be before my time, so sorry I do not know.

Great Britain Ute?
Gordon B Uteley?
Gastrointestinal Bypass Ute?

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

(Taq Man, I'm grateful & impressed you thought of me & my family)

After 3 months of a consistent & strong emotional desire to join the church, we let our son get baptized. There were probably 300 people in attendance, allegedly more than at other baptisms attended by General Authorities. (One of the genuine good guys in our general neighborhood, one of the local LDS elite, told the wife & I that our son, because he is African American, would play an instrumental role in healing many of the wounds brought on from past, [many of which were propogated by his great grandfather, John Taylor]. I found this remark & insight to be fascinating, and his positive take on things to be good.)

I could tell many of the good people in attendance at the baptism were sympathetic to our predicament, many looked maybe a little scared, certainly not envious, probably, to their credit, from putting the shoe on the other foot - how would a strong LDS family react to one of their kids deciding that a different religion was really what they wanted & craved? My sense is in the LDS world view this would be very difficult, as it was early on for me. Nonetheless, these folks were clearly supportive of our son and were genuinely grateful and happy he was joining the church.

His best friend - only 16 for a few months - baptized him in a packed room. You could tell there were many who wished my son the very best & the spirit of love was abundant. While appreciating the love, I was thinking how other cultures handle these kinds of rituals, how their feelings are just as strong & valid as those present that day.

Afterward there was a song, the missionaries gave their stump speech while my son & his friend dried off & got their clothes back on.

The bishop had a few comments & then invited me to share my thoughts. As a kid, I was pretty shy & always avoided giving a talk in church, and I think the adult members of my family were surprised at my relative bravery, maybe scared I would share my opinion that the Joseph Smith story is preposterous. There was no point in doing that, of course, and besides, I've never really expressed my opinion on Mormonism unless someone asked, and even then I've been careful not to offend, only saying I just don't find the LDS truth claims to be believable, and have found my own spiritual path that the Spirit has confirmed to me as being true. (That point pretty well precludes overtures to "re-convert" me, I hope without too much damage to the enquirer.)

I've never offered my unbridled views on Mormonism, except among friends or the wife. Besides that, as an "optimistic agnostic" I just don't put a lot of energy anymore into debating the merits & drawbacks of any given religion, except from an anthropological view. (Mormonism & other religions are fascinating, mostly in their effect on people, groups, ideology, etc.)

[A quick side story - my oldest son, now almost 20, was selected as president of the highschool LDS seminary even though he is black baptist. His friends tried repeatedly to get him to become interested in the church, given him many sets of scriptures, invited him to untold numbers of firesides, and he's attended many, went to seminary all 4 years given encouragement, some social pressure, etc. He's a great kid, as well, with dozens of friends on missions. I've never stood in the way of his investigating the LDS church, and was proud of him being selected as the seminary president. Anyway, he has always respectfully declined when pressed to consider baptism. Fast forward to the present, when the missionaries first started coming over to teach the middle son, my oldest took it upon himself to state his views on religion and his opinion that any church that claims to be the authentic, authoritative source of the Lord's official conduit of information is just plain wrong, at least on that point. I was somewhat stunned, both at his candor and because he & I have never talked about religion much, let alone Mormonism.]

Back to the baptism, in my remarks I told the audience / congregation that I grew up in Bountiful, fell away from the church as a teenager (didn't specify why) and told them that as I left Mormonism behind, I felt pretty isolated & depressed, but it was the right thing for me to do. In my time away I've learned that there are many, many people from a wide variety of religions & beliefs systems that have a great deal of truth to share, and I'm a much better person for being exposed to so much goodness. (I didn't share my experience in the Native American sweat lodge where - sans drugs - probably my most powerful "spiritual" experience. I think that would have made me a pariah among the local teenagers & made my son embarassed.)

I told them that in my judgement Mormonism has truth, as well, and I support my son's decision to be baptized LDS, with the caveat that if he decided to be LDS, I want him to be the best Mormon he can be, and if he falters, I'll kick his behind.

Afterward I had a couple dozen adults come up & thank me profusely for my comments - it was really flattering, but a little weird - and a few made a point to say they were "incredibly impressed" at how I'd handled things, etc, that many others would have been angry, said less than complimentary things about the LDS church, brought out some of the baggage, etc. I was grateful for their kind thoughts, impressed, amused, curious. (Later, after attending a few Sac & Testimony meetings and doing some mental math of the population in our ward compared to church attendance, I think the activity rate is around 30%, or so. I think the faithful are buoyed at any non-negative feedback from non-believers, seem to know there are problems. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, of course.)

I had no intention of being contrary in my remarks, but I felt I had to be honest about where I stand, how I've found a lot more truth being "outside", tacitly state that any thoughts that our entire family would come into the fold were probably misplaced, etc.

All in all, it was a very positive experience all the way around - my son is the talk of the town & the rest of us in the house maintain our dignity & keep our social esteem as non-Mormons intact.

My son has struck a chord with his feelings about the LDS church, and I respect that. We’re even tighter than we were before, and I’m hopeful he won’t start to believe our family is dysfunctional, is destined for the Telestial Kingdom, etc. After thinking I had a testimony at one time growing up, I came to the conclusion after a lot of deep thought, anguish and self doubt, that I could no longer accept the truth claims as being authentic. God gave me a brain & I used it, even though it isolated me from many in the community of my upbringing. That was not easy. In fact it really sucked.

I'm going to support my son in his budding faith, even though I can't be the super LDS dad who gives their kids priesthood blessing before big tests in school, etc. If he ever decides the church is not for him, I'll be there for him, help him with that transition.

For me, I've never been happier than where I am right now. It is a peace and settling truth I never found in organized religion. (Damn, that was a marathon post. lol)

That is a great story. Thanks for sharing. I'm impressed with how you handled it and stayed true to yourself.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Apologies, but who is GBU? It must be before my time, so sorry I do not know.

Great Britain Ute?
Gordon B Uteley?
Gastrointestinal Bypass Ute?

Almost on the first try. Great Basin Ute, Ma'ake's CB moniker. I wonder if he posts over there anymore.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Apologies, but who is GBU? It must be before my time, so sorry I do not know.

Great Britain Ute?
Gordon B Uteley?
Gastrointestinal Bypass Ute?

Ma'ake is aka Great Basin Ute, so you were close.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

(Taq Man, I'm grateful & impressed you thought of me & my family)

After 3 months of a consistent & strong emotional desire to join the church, we let our son get baptized. There were probably 300 people in attendance, allegedly more than at other baptisms attended by General Authorities. (One of the genuine good guys in our general neighborhood, one of the local LDS elite, told the wife & I that our son, because he is African American, would play an instrumental role in healing many of the wounds brought on from past, [many of which were propogated by his great grandfather, John Taylor]. I found this remark & insight to be fascinating, and his positive take on things to be good.)

I could tell many of the good people in attendance at the baptism were sympathetic to our predicament, many looked maybe a little scared, certainly not envious, probably, to their credit, from putting the shoe on the other foot - how would a strong LDS family react to one of their kids deciding that a different religion was really what they wanted & craved? My sense is in the LDS world view this would be very difficult, as it was early on for me. Nonetheless, these folks were clearly supportive of our son and were genuinely grateful and happy he was joining the church.

His best friend - only 16 for a few months - baptized him in a packed room. You could tell there were many who wished my son the very best & the spirit of love was abundant. While appreciating the love, I was thinking how other cultures handle these kinds of rituals, how their feelings are just as strong & valid as those present that day.

Afterward there was a song, the missionaries gave their stump speech while my son & his friend dried off & got their clothes back on.

The bishop had a few comments & then invited me to share my thoughts. As a kid, I was pretty shy & always avoided giving a talk in church, and I think the adult members of my family were surprised at my relative bravery, maybe scared I would share my opinion that the Joseph Smith story is preposterous. There was no point in doing that, of course, and besides, I've never really expressed my opinion on Mormonism unless someone asked, and even then I've been careful not to offend, only saying I just don't find the LDS truth claims to be believable, and have found my own spiritual path that the Spirit has confirmed to me as being true. (That point pretty well precludes overtures to "re-convert" me, I hope without too much damage to the enquirer.)

I've never offered my unbridled views on Mormonism, except among friends or the wife. Besides that, as an "optimistic agnostic" I just don't put a lot of energy anymore into debating the merits & drawbacks of any given religion, except from an anthropological view. (Mormonism & other religions are fascinating, mostly in their effect on people, groups, ideology, etc.)

[A quick side story - my oldest son, now almost 20, was selected as president of the highschool LDS seminary even though he is black baptist. His friends tried repeatedly to get him to become interested in the church, given him many sets of scriptures, invited him to untold numbers of firesides, and he's attended many, went to seminary all 4 years given encouragement, some social pressure, etc. He's a great kid, as well, with dozens of friends on missions. I've never stood in the way of his investigating the LDS church, and was proud of him being selected as the seminary president. Anyway, he has always respectfully declined when pressed to consider baptism. Fast forward to the present, when the missionaries first started coming over to teach the middle son, my oldest took it upon himself to state his views on religion and his opinion that any church that claims to be the authentic, authoritative source of the Lord's official conduit of information is just plain wrong, at least on that point. I was somewhat stunned, both at his candor and because he & I have never talked about religion much, let alone Mormonism.]

Back to the baptism, in my remarks I told the audience / congregation that I grew up in Bountiful, fell away from the church as a teenager (didn't specify why) and told them that as I left Mormonism behind, I felt pretty isolated & depressed, but it was the right thing for me to do. In my time away I've learned that there are many, many people from a wide variety of religions & beliefs systems that have a great deal of truth to share, and I'm a much better person for being exposed to so much goodness. (I didn't share my experience in the Native American sweat lodge where - sans drugs - probably my most powerful "spiritual" experience. I think that would have made me a pariah among the local teenagers & made my son embarassed.)

I told them that in my judgement Mormonism has truth, as well, and I support my son's decision to be baptized LDS, with the caveat that if he decided to be LDS, I want him to be the best Mormon he can be, and if he falters, I'll kick his behind.

Afterward I had a couple dozen adults come up & thank me profusely for my comments - it was really flattering, but a little weird - and a few made a point to say they were "incredibly impressed" at how I'd handled things, etc, that many others would have been angry, said less than complimentary things about the LDS church, brought out some of the baggage, etc. I was grateful for their kind thoughts, impressed, amused, curious. (Later, after attending a few Sac & Testimony meetings and doing some mental math of the population in our ward compared to church attendance, I think the activity rate is around 30%, or so. I think the faithful are buoyed at any non-negative feedback from non-believers, seem to know there are problems. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, of course.)

I had no intention of being contrary in my remarks, but I felt I had to be honest about where I stand, how I've found a lot more truth being "outside", tacitly state that any thoughts that our entire family would come into the fold were probably misplaced, etc.

All in all, it was a very positive experience all the way around - my son is the talk of the town & the rest of us in the house maintain our dignity & keep our social esteem as non-Mormons intact.

My son has struck a chord with his feelings about the LDS church, and I respect that. We’re even tighter than we were before, and I’m hopeful he won’t start to believe our family is dysfunctional, is destined for the Telestial Kingdom, etc. After thinking I had a testimony at one time growing up, I came to the conclusion after a lot of deep thought, anguish and self doubt, that I could no longer accept the truth claims as being authentic. God gave me a brain & I used it, even though it isolated me from many in the community of my upbringing. That was not easy. In fact it really sucked.

I'm going to support my son in his budding faith, even though I can't be the super LDS dad who gives their kids priesthood blessing before big tests in school, etc. If he ever decides the church is not for him, I'll be there for him, help him with that transition.

For me, I've never been happier than where I am right now. It is a peace and settling truth I never found in organized religion. (Damn, that was a marathon post. lol)

At my age I generally fall asleep reading posts that long. I actually read the whole thing and enjoyed it.

I think the sense you felt from people at the baptism is basically how the membership of the church basically feels. There is the extreme orthodox group and the extreme group who leaves the church and feels the need to tear it down.

It is my feeling the rest of us belong to the vast middle.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar

an ugly thread

PAC, this is uncharitable to Waters. I deny the thread was ugly.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

(Taq Man, I'm grateful & impressed you thought of me & my family)

After 3 months of a consistent & strong emotional desire to join the church, we let our son get baptized. There were probably 300 people in attendance, allegedly more than at other baptisms attended by General Authorities. (One of the genuine good guys in our general neighborhood, one of the local LDS elite, told the wife & I that our son, because he is African American, would play an instrumental role in healing many of the wounds brought on from past, [many of which were propogated by his great grandfather, John Taylor]. I found this remark & insight to be fascinating, and his positive take on things to be good.)

I could tell many of the good people in attendance at the baptism were sympathetic to our predicament, many looked maybe a little scared, certainly not envious, probably, to their credit, from putting the shoe on the other foot - how would a strong LDS family react to one of their kids deciding that a different religion was really what they wanted & craved? My sense is in the LDS world view this would be very difficult, as it was early on for me. Nonetheless, these folks were clearly supportive of our son and were genuinely grateful and happy he was joining the church.

His best friend - only 16 for a few months - baptized him in a packed room. You could tell there were many who wished my son the very best & the spirit of love was abundant. While appreciating the love, I was thinking how other cultures handle these kinds of rituals, how their feelings are just as strong & valid as those present that day.

Afterward there was a song, the missionaries gave their stump speech while my son & his friend dried off & got their clothes back on.

The bishop had a few comments & then invited me to share my thoughts. As a kid, I was pretty shy & always avoided giving a talk in church, and I think the adult members of my family were surprised at my relative bravery, maybe scared I would share my opinion that the Joseph Smith story is preposterous. There was no point in doing that, of course, and besides, I've never really expressed my opinion on Mormonism unless someone asked, and even then I've been careful not to offend, only saying I just don't find the LDS truth claims to be believable, and have found my own spiritual path that the Spirit has confirmed to me as being true. (That point pretty well precludes overtures to "re-convert" me, I hope without too much damage to the enquirer.)

I've never offered my unbridled views on Mormonism, except among friends or the wife. Besides that, as an "optimistic agnostic" I just don't put a lot of energy anymore into debating the merits & drawbacks of any given religion, except from an anthropological view. (Mormonism & other religions are fascinating, mostly in their effect on people, groups, ideology, etc.)

[A quick side story - my oldest son, now almost 20, was selected as president of the highschool LDS seminary even though he is black baptist. His friends tried repeatedly to get him to become interested in the church, given him many sets of scriptures, invited him to untold numbers of firesides, and he's attended many, went to seminary all 4 years given encouragement, some social pressure, etc. He's a great kid, as well, with dozens of friends on missions. I've never stood in the way of his investigating the LDS church, and was proud of him being selected as the seminary president. Anyway, he has always respectfully declined when pressed to consider baptism. Fast forward to the present, when the missionaries first started coming over to teach the middle son, my oldest took it upon himself to state his views on religion and his opinion that any church that claims to be the authentic, authoritative source of the Lord's official conduit of information is just plain wrong, at least on that point. I was somewhat stunned, both at his candor and because he & I have never talked about religion much, let alone Mormonism.]

Back to the baptism, in my remarks I told the audience / congregation that I grew up in Bountiful, fell away from the church as a teenager (didn't specify why) and told them that as I left Mormonism behind, I felt pretty isolated & depressed, but it was the right thing for me to do. In my time away I've learned that there are many, many people from a wide variety of religions & beliefs systems that have a great deal of truth to share, and I'm a much better person for being exposed to so much goodness. (I didn't share my experience in the Native American sweat lodge where - sans drugs - probably my most powerful "spiritual" experience. I think that would have made me a pariah among the local teenagers & made my son embarassed.)

I told them that in my judgement Mormonism has truth, as well, and I support my son's decision to be baptized LDS, with the caveat that if he decided to be LDS, I want him to be the best Mormon he can be, and if he falters, I'll kick his behind.

Afterward I had a couple dozen adults come up & thank me profusely for my comments - it was really flattering, but a little weird - and a few made a point to say they were "incredibly impressed" at how I'd handled things, etc, that many others would have been angry, said less than complimentary things about the LDS church, brought out some of the baggage, etc. I was grateful for their kind thoughts, impressed, amused, curious. (Later, after attending a few Sac & Testimony meetings and doing some mental math of the population in our ward compared to church attendance, I think the activity rate is around 30%, or so. I think the faithful are buoyed at any non-negative feedback from non-believers, seem to know there are problems. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, of course.)

I had no intention of being contrary in my remarks, but I felt I had to be honest about where I stand, how I've found a lot more truth being "outside", tacitly state that any thoughts that our entire family would come into the fold were probably misplaced, etc.

All in all, it was a very positive experience all the way around - my son is the talk of the town & the rest of us in the house maintain our dignity & keep our social esteem as non-Mormons intact.

My son has struck a chord with his feelings about the LDS church, and I respect that. We’re even tighter than we were before, and I’m hopeful he won’t start to believe our family is dysfunctional, is destined for the Telestial Kingdom, etc. After thinking I had a testimony at one time growing up, I came to the conclusion after a lot of deep thought, anguish and self doubt, that I could no longer accept the truth claims as being authentic. God gave me a brain & I used it, even though it isolated me from many in the community of my upbringing. That was not easy. In fact it really sucked.

I'm going to support my son in his budding faith, even though I can't be the super LDS dad who gives their kids priesthood blessing before big tests in school, etc. If he ever decides the church is not for him, I'll be there for him, help him with that transition.

For me, I've never been happier than where I am right now. It is a peace and settling truth I never found in organized religion. (Damn, that was a marathon post. lol)

At the end of the day, there is nothing like our children's satisfaction to bring us joy, whatever the enterprise, even if we must experience it as outsiders. I venture the majority of parents never learn this lesson. Good for you GBU (I can never spell your other name).

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

You blowing your top and acting like cunt every time a nonbeliever without a PHd voices their opinion is stupid.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I see someone attach this sort of attacking language to their contention, the person's credibility shoots through the roof, and I am much, much more likely to consider their side of the issue.

</sarcasm>

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

I don't know about anyone else, but when I see someone attach this sort of attacking language to their contention, the person's credibility shoots through the roof, and I am much, much more likely to consider their side of the issue.

</sarcasm>

"acting cunt" now as one who spends a great deal of time seeking to insult ex-ute using "douche" in as many forms as the english language will allow, I disagree with Ute4ever. I think Taq took a noun and used it as an adverb. That impresses me as one who likes to insult others.

I like it. Well done TaqMan. I have long had your back. You are a bitter apostate, but in a strange way I give dickheads like you and Seattle more wiggleroom than I do the shaffs or hyrums. You folks did your time and decided it wasn't your cup of postum. The religion will always be part of you and likely your descendents will make their way back to the faith if your falling away has any impact- such is the strength of the covenants your forbears made. hyrum and shaff are just asshats here to be asshats.