Christian Nation - Page 3 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Jeff Lebowski · 10-02-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

You mean Israel is a theocracy?

No, but it is most certainly a Jewish state with a state religion. For example, go try knocking on doors in Tel Aviv as an LDS missionary and watch what happens. Come on, Indy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

How could a Jewish person not recognize they live in a Christian nation when they are outnumbered 59:1?

The overwhelming majority of our laws, judges and elected officials are Christian.

The only basis you could object to McCain's claim that the US is a Christian nation is one of strained semantics. Wait, I guess that's your forte. Never mind.

It doesn't bother me that much. But I am saying that I can understand why some folks might get nervous. And you have purposefully avoided discussion of the implication that we should only have a "Christian" president. I think that notion is nonsense.

Tex · 10-02-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

No, but it is most certainly a Jewish state with a state religion. For example, go try knocking on doors in Tel Aviv as an LDS missionary and watch what happens. Come on, Indy.

Bad example. The LDS faith has a special and somewhat tenuous relationship with the Israeli government. If you've ever been to Israel, you'll know there are Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and more than enough of each. I don't know that any of the Christians go door-to-door (not a common practice anywhere, really), but don't think they aren't trying to garner converts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It doesn't bother me that much. But I am saying that I can understand why some folks might get nervous. And you have purposefully avoided discussion of the implication that we should only have a "Christian" president. I think that notion is nonsense.

Why is that notion nonsense? I don't think McCain said it was constitutionally required, just that it was his preference. Isn't politics about electing people who share your views and your values? Seems quite normal to me.

Jeff Lebowski · 10-02-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

Bad example. The LDS faith has a special and somewhat tenuous relationship with the Israeli government. If you've ever been to Israel, you'll know there are Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and more than enough of each. I don't know that any of the Christians go door-to-door (not a common practice anywhere, really), but don't think they aren't trying to garner converts.

In order to get permission to open the Jerusalem Center, the LDS church had to agree not to engage in any proselyting. And each student that goes there has to agree not to proselyte. The common refrain is "We lost so many Jews during the holocaust, we don't need to lose any more to Mormonism." Yes, Israel has a degree of religious freedom, but nothing like what we enjoy in the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

Why is that notion nonsense? I don't think McCain said it was constitutionally required, just that it was his preference. Isn't politics about electing people who share your views and your values? Seems quite normal to me.

Who is to say that a Jew or Muslim (or Mormon) can't share your core values? Let's put it this way, I don't see a whole lot of difference between these two statements:

"I believe we should always have a Christian president."

and

"We should never have a __________ president." (insert Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, etc.)

Tex · 10-02-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

In order to get permission to open the Jerusalem Center, the LDS church had to agree not to engage in any proselyting. And each student that goes there has to agree not to proselyte. The common refrain is "We lost so many Jews during the holocaust, we don't need to lose any more to Mormonism." Yes, Israel has a degree of religious freedom, but nothing like what we enjoy in the US.

The point is not to compare their degrees of religious freedom, but to compare whether a Christian should be surprised to find Jews prefering Jewish leadeship while he lives there. Were it me, it would not surprise nor bother me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Who is to say that a Jew or Muslim (or Mormon) can't share your core values? Let's put it this way, I don't see a whole lot of difference between these two statements:

"I believe we should always have a Christian president."

and

"We should never have a __________ president." (insert Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, etc.)

Fortunately, John McCain didn't say that. (And I'm no McCain defender, by the way.) This is what he said:

"I just have to say in all candor that since this nation was founded primarily on Christian principles, personally, I prefer someone who has a grounding in my faith," ...

"I believe that anyone can be president of the United States of any faith," ...

You're making more of what he said than is there.

Jeff Lebowski · 10-02-2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

"I just have to say in all candor that since this nation was founded primarily on Christian principles, personally, I prefer someone who has a grounding in my faith," ...

"I believe that anyone can be president of the United States of any faith," ...

You're making more of what he said than is there.

Fair enough.

Tex · 10-02-2007, 05:57 PM

I'm talking about McCain's statement.

non sequitur · 10-02-2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

93.2% of all those in the US that identify themselves with a religion call themselves Christian.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

To call the US a "Christian Nation" is neither controversial nor disputable.

I'm curious. Why do you use the 93.2% figure? Why not use the 76% figure cited by your source? Don't non-religious people count? It sounds to me like you're telling 38,000,000 people to go screw themselves.

Indy Coug · 10-02-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

I'm curious. Why do you use the 93.2% figure? Why not use the 76% figure cited by your source? Don't non-religious people count? It sounds to me like you're telling 75,000,000 people to go screw themselves.

I figure they were going to be put out no matter which religion McCain cited. Besides, if I can piss you off by neglecting non-religious people, that's an added bonus.

Jeff Lebowski · 10-02-2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I figure they were going to be put out no matter which religion McCain cited. Besides, if I can piss you off by neglecting non-religious people, that's an added bonus.

Interesting. So do you routinely present bogus statistics to make your point? Wait, I guess that's your forte. Never mind.

Indy Coug · 10-02-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Interesting. So do you routinely present bogus statistics to make your point? Wait, I guess that's your forte. Never mind.

Bogus stats? I clearly qualified the ratio as a ratio of Christians to all those with a professed religion.

I provided a link to the "raw" data. What's the problem?

10-02-2007, 05:57 PM	#26
Tex Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,596	I'm talking about McCain's statement. __________________ "Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young