The white shirt obsession within the Church seems

[Goatnapper'96]

I found Robin's post the most interesting. What I find interesting was the pinnacle of cultism that requires the sacrifice of will. As I study the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is my conclusion that the only thing one has to put on the altar of God is our will. I believe he pretty much can take everything else if he so chooses. So I will go with the Satan using cults to replicate God's model to pacify this closes minded mormon...

On the great white shirt debate, I reiterate my personal position. Which is the mostest correctest...I wear a white shirt. I have no issues with uniforms. In fact while at West Point I actually came to appreciate the whole uniform concept. But I am a lazy person by nature and usually pretty unconcerned about clothes, so if I don't have to make that decision it gave me about 2-3 extra minutes of sleep a night.

From a religious perspective I believe in doing what those in authority ask. If it is a simple thing I give it even less thought. I agree with the concept that it is a man made doctrine or tradition, but not really one that can potentially harm anyone or is in opposition to gospel principles. Other than the concept that man made traditions are wrong, but that is fight nobody is going to win. Now that I think about it I cannot recall anyone specifically asking me to wear a white shirt, but I know the expectation is that if one is participating in gospel ordinances they should have a white shirt so I do so. However, if I were a Bishop, it is highly unlikely I would allow it to become an issue. In my perspective these issues are only solved when spoken upon by those in authority. I think misguided leaders are the cause of these issues and guided leaders are the only solution.

However, because I openly admit that Pamela Anderson is sporting the two Canandian contributions to Man Made Wonders of the World, it is highly unlikely I will ever be in a position to influence anyone on this subject. Until then, I will wear my white shirt, blue sportscoat, conservative tie and khaki trousers. I will take the sacrament with my right hand. I will shave my balding head and the only growth of hair folks will see is on my nuckles and the few back hairs that stick up between my collar and neck. I'm right sexy!\

Can somebody give the words that NIMO stands for? Is it Non-believing Inactive MOrmon?

[MikeWaters]

I think the expectation to wear white shirts may be regional. It was not the case in the ward I grew up in.

Didn't require white shirts for the sacrament, but DID require full uniform for Boy Scouts.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think the expectation to wear white shirts may be regional. It was not the case in the ward I grew up in.

Didn't require white shirts for the sacrament, but DID require full uniform for Boy Scouts.

I would propose that this is a consequence of it being more predominately expected in regions where the LDS Church is more institutionalized. Give it time and it will become the expectation if what is commonly referred to as "the mission field."

[myboynoah]

Is this really that big of a deal in the U.S. Church? Perhaps I am too far removed from the hive central.

Reminds of a missionary companion (ended up being my best companion). In Japan, for whatever reason, cola drinks had worked their way into the WoW. Whenever we taught the WoW with a member, he/she would always pop in after we had done our spiel with an addendum that cola drinks too were on the prohibited list. We would usually roll our eyes, but keep silent, since given all the cultural barriers to Japanese becoming Mormons, why rock the boat and potentially drive a good, honest, ACTIVE member away by challenging this little addition.

Naturally this practice managed to migrate into missionary practice and we would usually turn down coal drinks when offered. I suppose there were also occasional discussions on this with the more pharisitical among us making extremist comments against these dreaded products. Ho hum.

One afternoon as we were tracting, my companion wouldn't shut up about this, going on and on about how cola drinks were not against the WoW and that those holding to this belief needed to get a clue. Personally, I had no dog in that fight, thinking that if I wanted to drink a Coke, then I would drink a Coke. But at the same time, I wanted to be sensitive to local practices and hence, would abstain. Not my companion; he had a hot red iron rod up his ass on this one. He went on and on, and to prove his point, stopped at a vending machine, bought a Coke, and drank it.

My only thought was, "Boy, you sure are being a dick this afternoon."

8)

[Mormon Red Death]

that reminds me of when I was in the MTC my parents sent me a whole bunch of Dr. Pepper to which I took one to dinner everynight. Well one day while eating some older guy (maybe a mtc worker he was probably 50) said loudly "That's the wrong way to start your mission son" while pointing to my pop. I was startled that someone would have the gall to make a spectacle out of the situation that I didn't know what to say. It took me a minute to realize what he was saying and then I just laughed and shook my head. I guess he didn't like my answer so he just walked away. But after I remember talking with the other elders in my district "Que Isso?"

[Archaea]

Goat has some great points but so does Mike.

Funny thing is, I've never been asked to wear a dress shirt of white color. I just wear what's clean.

I was not allowed to participate in a court once, cuz I came straight from work, and forgot my tie. The bishop didn't like it, so I sat outside. Bummer.

I understand the reasons for the uniform, but I have never seen a big deal made. We do buy white shirts for our Aaronic priesthood sons.

[Goatnapper'96]

I was not allowed to participate in a court once, cuz I came straight from work, and forgot my tie. The bishop didn't like it, so I sat outside. Bummer.

So that is how you kept your membership?

[Robin]

r.f.

[Goatnapper'96]

The key distinction I made between cults and everybody else is the sacrifice of will WITHOUT REASON. Once you are willing to do anything an authority asks, simply out of respect for the authority, you are entering cult-land in a hurry. To that end I would argue that many mormons are members of a cult. I would also argue that many mormons are NOT members of a cult.

If I understand the teachings of the LDS Church, there is significant personal responsibility with respect to determining the authenticity of any command or directive. Part of that determination process is supposed to utilize personal reason and individual thought. Your distinction of the two groups of Mormons, the CMOs and NCMOs (oh how the work of God is one eternal round opines Goat thinking about the good ol days with Sister Goat on lonely nights up East Fork in his beloved Rockland Valley), which would be Cult Mormons and NonCult Mormon. Therefore, the independent variable is the individual and not the religious doctrine as it seems able to accomodate folks of diverse spiritual and intellectual capacities.

I agree with Robin once again. I do point out that I think there is Jenna Jameson like crevace between one wearing a white shirt and doing their duty to blow the brains out of some disrespectful emigrants on their way to California. There is a point in time for one to take a stand against religious authority in the LDS Church and I contend that we will know when that time is. I also think we should be really sure and if wrong, like for example Oliver Cowdry or Martin Harris, have the humility to make ammends.

For the record, I am dubious that the time is when offered a scholarship by Pete Carrol.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by DrumNFeather

I find it very interesting to read the responses to this topic in particular. Because, IMO, it really is a topic that has a number of branches we can go off to.

Specifically, I find it interesting that we're talking about intentions, reverence towards God, "it's what's inside that counts...not outside etc..."

Someone jokingly said that he would not wear a tie to church so that he could avoid a EQ or higher calling. While I understand he was joking, I find it interesting that the only thing we're worried about here is shirt color...not wheather we should wear a collard shirt at all, or why can't we wear Jeans to church like others, or a discussion on nice ties vs. Disney ties etc...but simply, color of shirt.

IF we are truly only concerned about shirt color as a means of proving that it's what is in our hearts that count, then, why not show up to church in a T-Shirt and Jeans? If God loves us all the same and knows our hearts, then what would be the problem?

If you say reverence and respect to God, I'd ask where that doctrine is. If there is no Doctrine that says we're required to wear a white shirt to church, then I would venture to guess that their is also little doctrine outlining what we can and cannot wear.

For example: When I lived in salt lake city, my singles ward looked more like an artists pallet than a church congregation, shirts ranging from Neon green to pink to black. The girls had plenty to show off as well trying to keep up with the fashion of the day and many of the Elders, yes returned missionary elders showed up in a colored shirt, a tie to match and flip flops on their feet. So, where do we draw the line? and again, what is really at issue here?

IMO, singles wards kind of don't count, they serve one purpose and that is to allow young single adults to meet eachother and get married...and what happens as a result? We've got ourselves a fashion show...

Back to my point, where do we draw the line between what is appropriate for church and what is not? UtahDan made the point that we sometimes like to fancy ourselves as "a cut above" because we see Catholics or Lutherens heading to their services in jeans and we scoff at them because they're not being reverent. As i've said before, to me, it's a simple case of some of us in the church finding some way, any way to not completely conform to the prevailing standards so when we are asked we can say or have said about us, "No, he's a cool mormon."

Here are a couple of thoughts on your thoughts:

1. I agree that some people will look for opportunities to be different and not wearing a white shirt is certainly one of them.

2. The logical extreme of the idea that "what is inside is more important than what is on the outside" is wearing jeans and a tee shirt. The logical extreme of the "white is more pure" argument is wearing all white. I think this is a discussion about where the balance lies.

3. Being different from "prevailing standards" in my opinion isn't always bad if we're just talking about a cultural standard (which IMO we are here, though I know others disagree). Some of our other cultural standards include voting republican, owning a mini-van, starting a talk with the story about your reaction when the second counselor called you and (more and more) homeschooling.

4. For the record I (1) almost always wear a white shirt and (2) have never been told by anyone in authority that I should.