Modern day apostacy - how would we know?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't think you trade souls for PR. So I have to the conclusion that they weren't really trading anything all that important.

You're still doing it. Bad PR means more people don't investigate, don't join, and don't do temple work. Don't be asinine.

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by Tex

When Hinckley repeats that the church is healthy and growing, how shall we respond? "Oh yeah? Where's the miracles, Gordon?"

If he comes back from the dead to tell us the church is healthy and growing, I will have no choice but to consider it a miracle.

[Jim Swarthout]

Originally Posted by Tex

Nonsense.

The requirement of baptism is described in all the standard works of the church, including extensive treatment in the Book of Mormon. It's been reiterated by prophets for decades going back to Joseph Smith. It's included in the 4th Article of Faith as the first ordinance of the gospel. Even Jesus Christ himself, God of the Universe, had to humble himself and submit to being baptized. The church has spent countless millions of dollars and thousands of man hours on efforts to make this ordinance available to generations of deceased ancestors. This is no fringe doctrine about how many man-years it took to form the earth; we're talking about a fundamental doctrine of the gospel of Christ.

And we discard all this why? Because "we're not capable of understanding the works of God." In that case, why believe anything the scriptures or the prophets of God say at all? If we are so incapable of understanding this basic ordinance, perhaps the sealing power is not necessary to bind families together? Perhaps the priesthood is not really necessary to govern the church. In fact, perhaps even the sacrifice of Jesus Christ himself was actually unnecessary. Who knows? Not us ... we are not capable of understanding, right?

Sorry, ER, but this line of thinking doesn't just defy revelation, it's defies logic. A rational being would have a much harder time coming to terms with that kind of cognitive dissonance, then to accept that Mother Teresa might have to wait a few years to receive this ordinance before accepting her (apparently pre-ordained, according to you) eternal crown.

Denying the necessity of baptism is a denial of the faith itself.

Don't worry, Tex. You are just exhibiting a classic third stage level of faith. It really gets better once you progress to stage four.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jim Swarthout

Don't worry, Tex. You are just exhibiting a classic third stage level of faith. It really gets better once you progress to stage four.

I believe you.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Tex

I believe you.

I was about to defend you, but the posting of that link in response is about as classic Stage III as they come. Nice job.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I was about to defend you, but the posting of that link in response is about as classic Stage III as they come. Nice job.

It appears condescension transcends all stages.

[Indy Coug]

When will the Book of Fowler be canonized?

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Tex

It appears condescension transcends all stages.

I think that you're directing that at me.

Sort of ironic.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

When will the Book of Fowler be canonized?

I can appreciate the humor here, but I would love to hear your thoughts on where he got things wrong. Sincerely, I mean that.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I can appreciate the humor here, but I would love to hear your thoughts on where he got things wrong. Sincerely, I mean that.

Here...let me help you, since I doubt you'll ever touch the book.

The reason I was about to defend Tex is that I think it's really difficult to place others in the progression through stages (and sort of useless). IMO, the value of Fowler's book is identifying yourself and how your faith has developed through your lifetime. I imagine you and Tex view Stage IV as apostates looking down on members (Stage III) as unenlightened, and Fowler's book allows the apostates to maintain their sense of superiority. I suggest you read the book. The stages have little to do with how orthodox one's beliefs are, which is why I think it's so difficult to place others in the progression.