One of the safest places to commit mass murder:

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Archaea

My family believes in being armed. For example, a recent family member spent a week in a special locale, training with a weapon, through certified trainers on how to use proactively 45s in real life urban settings. This member was the only non-police, non-military there. Most of them were former special forces. It was completely legal and showed the member how incompetent in a fast moving scenario most of us will be. Plus, outside of about 100 feet, using a pistol or revolver is not very reliable.

I am a snob enough to believe most will not be as good as I am with the weapon and that I am most likely to be harmed by another idiot. If you fire weekly, then I can trust you, but if you haven't fired in the last three months, please leave your weapon at home.

Have you ever had a weapon pointed at you? It is surreal. I have never pointed my weapons at any person, thank God.

Straight from the Brady Campaign--the "only the the police are trained to use firearms" argument. And when pressed, admitting, that maybe also citizens who have paid thousands for training.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What you said could have been lifted directly from the Brady Campaign.

Which goes to my point that a lot of people, in their heart of hearts, wish for citizens to be disarmed, no matter the cost.

I don't want government regulation but self-regulation, it's a key distinction. If you aren't competent, don't pack. Get out of my way. Because if you as an idiot hit me when you're trying to shoot a perp, I or my estate is suing your ass.

You didn't answer the question, have you had a gun pulled on you? You need a lot of real life imitation to be effective in it.

For example, in self defense classes, we spend a lot of time practicing with fake knives and occasionally disarming guns. Most of the time you are shot or dead. And when it really happens, you freeze. Mine happened on a mission and we left the vicinity determining that the gentleman really intended for us to leave his apartment building.

Do you want Brother Fat ass carrying his 38 his father gave him two decades ago packing? So when you argue with him about race based restrictions on the priesthood he pops you a couple?

[MikeWaters]

No one disputes that practice, and lots of it is the best. Of course, you can't truly practice with the stress that you would be under in a life and death situation.

But do you know how much it would cost to practice weekly?

If you shot weekly:
range fee $15
ammo (.45acp 200 rounds) $80
cleaning supplies
time to clean
time to shoot

How much practice do you think they did in the Old West? How many gun owners in the West had fired 1,000 rounds in their lifetime?

I can see where someone who is rich, in their white rich suburb, would sneer at a poor mom in the projects, who has armed herself to protect her children against gangs that are rampant, and tell her she is not qualified to defend herself and her family.

Again, your notion of wanting to sue--it goes straight to the article I recently linked where if you do in fact use a gun to save your life, your are a monster. Pariah. You may not be a murderer, but you are a KILLER and get the hell away from us.

Sorry, dude, you are not pro-RKBA.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

No one disputes that practice, and lots of it is the best. Of course, you can't truly practice with the stress that you would be under in a life and death situation.

But do you know how much it would cost to practice weekly?

If you shot weekly:
range fee $15
ammo (.45acp 200 rounds) $80
cleaning supplies
time to clean
time to shoot

How much practice do you think they did in the Old West? How many gun owners in the West had fired 1,000 rounds in their lifetime?

I can see where someone who is rich, in their white rich suburb, would sneer at a poor mom in the projects, who has armed herself to protect her children against gangs that are rampant, and tell her she is not qualified to defend herself and her family.

Again, your notion of wanting to sue--it goes straight to the article I recently linked where if you do in fact use a gun to save your life, your are a monster. Pariah. You may not be a murderer, but you are a KILLER and get the hell away from us.

Sorry, dude, you are not pro-RKBA.

i would sue only if you miss your target.

And if you practice with a 22, it's not so expensive.

It's one thing to have a shotgun inside your house, because all you need is point blank range, but it's another thing to have it concealed in church.

Each person should balance the risks/rewards. Are you likely to be effective in protecting yourself or are you endangering more persons than you are likely to protect? A trained policeman will not fire if bystanders are collateral damage. Is that mother likely to make the same assessment? If there is a doubt, don't fire.

I don't like to fire the 45 because of expense, you need to be accustomed to the weight, gases, and the push-pull of firing. The gun, depending upon model, can be wonderful to fire.

I am for an armed public, but I am first and foremost in favor of each gunowner being a safe an operator as one can be. We don't need CWP holders to set bad precedent to give the regulators reason to restrict ownership. It's up to us to police ourselves.

Safety first.

BTW, several of the participants at this training ground were non-white. It's rather obscene to believe only whites believe in safety.

[Archaea]

22 caliber ammunition costs about 10 cents a bullet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...m_campaign=652

[MikeWaters]

Practicing with a 22 can be good for some things, but not for practicing fire-on-fire scenarios. You have to practice with the caliber that you would be using.

That would be like preparing for a car race with a Ford Focus, and then actually trying to race with a Formula 1. Not a good idea.

I could link dozens of articles, I believe, of people using concealed guns to protect themselves and others. Off-hand, I don't remember a case where a CHL holder hurt or killed someone with friendly fire. Not saying it hasn't happened.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Practicing with a 22 can be good for some things, but not for practicing fire-on-fire scenarios. You have to practice with the caliber that you would be using.

That would be like preparing for a car race with a Ford Focus, and then actually trying to race with a Formula 1. Not a good idea.

I could link dozens of articles, I believe, of people using concealed guns to protect themselves and others. Off-hand, I don't remember a case where a CHL holder hurt or killed someone with friendly fire. Not saying it hasn't happened.

You can buy the same model weapon, same design with differing calibers. For example, a 38, 40 caliber or 9mm are much more reasonably priced, so you can acquire them and practice with them. Of course, this gets expensive, but when life and death are concerned, safety should be a paramount concern.

There many sad cases, especially in the case of senior citizens where the citizen was overpowered and killed or harmed by one's own weapon and the same weapon was used on another occupant of the home. I would have to research the issue of friendly fire. I know even police who strive to be careful sometimes are guilty of friendly fire.

[Archaea]

the perfect cw for you Mike.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_Colt_pistol

unless you prefer the HK.

http://handgundata.blogspot.com/2006...-non-1911.html

But you should bid on this one, I won't tell Farrah.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=123689471

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You can buy the same model weapon, same design with differing calibers. For example, a 38, 40 caliber or 9mm are much more reasonably priced, so you can acquire them and practice with them. Of course, this gets expensive, but when life and death are concerned, safety should be a paramount concern.

There many sad cases, especially in the case of senior citizens where the citizen was overpowered and killed or harmed by one's own weapon and the same weapon was used on another occupant of the home. I would have to research the issue of friendly fire. I know even police who strive to be careful sometimes are guilty of friendly fire.

You are kind of out of your element here, but I will suffer your noobness. You could for example have a 45acp glock, but that gun would be different than a 40S&W or a 9mm glock. There are some pretty simple caliber conversions, for example, I believe a .40 glock 23 can be converted to .357sig with just a barrel change. But you are not saving money by doing that. Now there are .22cal conversion kits, but again, you are shooting a whole different weapon when it has been converted to 22. There are principals of shooting that can be learned with a .22. But handling recoil is probably not one of them. One of the main problems with shooting a handgun is that some people anticipate the recoil, and thereby direct the muzzle of the gun downward before pulling the trigger (subconsciously) and this causes them to miss badly.

I would also add that shooting buckshot in a shotgun is not a "can't miss" thing. If you shoot a short barrel shotgun with buckshot in a 18in cylindrical barrel, I am told, the pattern at pistol distances is very tight. Much tighter than you would think. There is no "spray". You have to aim.

The "you will be overpowered" argument is straight from the Brady Campaign playbook. They always argue that by arming yourself, you place yourself at greater danger. It's a psychology of victimology--embrace being a victim. Join the sheeple.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You are kind of out of your element here, but I will suffer your noobness. You could for example have a 45acp glock, but that gun would be different than a 40S&W or a 9mm glock. There are some pretty simple caliber conversions, for example, I believe a .40 glock 23 can be converted to .357sig with just a barrel change. But you are not saving money by doing that. Now there are .22cal conversion kits, but again, you are shooting a whole different weapon when it has been converted to 22. There are principals of shooting that can be learned with a .22. But handling recoil is probably not one of them. One of the main problems with shooting a handgun is that some people anticipate the recoil, and thereby direct the muzzle of the gun downward before pulling the trigger (subconsciously) and this causes them to miss badly.

I would also add that shooting buckshot in a shotgun is not a "can't miss" thing. If you shoot a short barrel shotgun with buckshot in a 18in cylindrical barrel, I am told, the pattern at pistol distances is very tight. Much tighter than you would think. There is no "spray". You have to aim.

The "you will be overpowered" argument is straight from the Brady Campaign playbook. They always argue that by arming yourself, you place yourself at greater danger. It's a psychology of victimology--embrace being a victim. Join the sheeple.

So you've never heard of cases of an elderly man being overpowered in a robbery attempt? I have.

I am not asking you to convert the weapon but to buy two weapons of similar design. BTW, the Wilson M1911 has significantly reduced kick. To hold it properly, you need to push-pull.