Maake had a difficult situation with his family

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You are Satan. You're nice enough, at times. You can converse. It's not that I hate you, or don't like you. But you are Satan.

If Satan were on this board, his posting would be indistinguishable from yours.

Satan isn't Bob McCue, whoever he is. He's not Schaff. He's someone that alternatively flatters and condemns. He fancies himself sophisticated.

He's around. He hangs out. At first it's not clear why he hangs out. And that's your first clue.

He gently sows doubt when he can. He pities you. He condescends. "You're so much better than you think. We are alike you know."

Do angels really hate Satan? I don't know. I think they probably disagree on many fundamental things. But maybe they converse. Maybe they battle in the arena of ideas. All Satan and God have, after all, are ideas.

Which idea do you like? I just happen to not like Satan's ideas. But of course, not everyone has the same taste.

Well, it's time for me to go to bed. I will pray to God tonight. And I will eschew Satan.

QED

[Ma'ake]

(Taq Man, I'm grateful & impressed you thought of me & my family)

After 3 months of a consistent & strong emotional desire to join the church, we let our son get baptized. There were probably 300 people in attendance, allegedly more than at other baptisms attended by General Authorities. (One of the genuine good guys in our general neighborhood, one of the local LDS elite, told the wife & I that our son, because he is African American, would play an instrumental role in healing many of the wounds brought on from past, [many of which were propogated by his great grandfather, John Taylor]. I found this remark & insight to be fascinating, and his positive take on things to be good.)

I could tell many of the good people in attendance at the baptism were sympathetic to our predicament, many looked maybe a little scared, certainly not envious, probably, to their credit, from putting the shoe on the other foot - how would a strong LDS family react to one of their kids deciding that a different religion was really what they wanted & craved? My sense is in the LDS world view this would be very difficult, as it was early on for me. Nonetheless, these folks were clearly supportive of our son and were genuinely grateful and happy he was joining the church.

His best friend - only 16 for a few months - baptized him in a packed room. You could tell there were many who wished my son the very best & the spirit of love was abundant. While appreciating the love, I was thinking how other cultures handle these kinds of rituals, how their feelings are just as strong & valid as those present that day.

Afterward there was a song, the missionaries gave their stump speech while my son & his friend dried off & got their clothes back on.

The bishop had a few comments & then invited me to share my thoughts. As a kid, I was pretty shy & always avoided giving a talk in church, and I think the adult members of my family were surprised at my relative bravery, maybe scared I would share my opinion that the Joseph Smith story is preposterous. There was no point in doing that, of course, and besides, I've never really expressed my opinion on Mormonism unless someone asked, and even then I've been careful not to offend, only saying I just don't find the LDS truth claims to be believable, and have found my own spiritual path that the Spirit has confirmed to me as being true. (That point pretty well precludes overtures to "re-convert" me, I hope without too much damage to the enquirer.)

I've never offered my unbridled views on Mormonism, except among friends or the wife. Besides that, as an "optimistic agnostic" I just don't put a lot of energy anymore into debating the merits & drawbacks of any given religion, except from an anthropological view. (Mormonism & other religions are fascinating, mostly in their effect on people, groups, ideology, etc.)

[A quick side story - my oldest son, now almost 20, was selected as president of the highschool LDS seminary even though he is black baptist. His friends tried repeatedly to get him to become interested in the church, given him many sets of scriptures, invited him to untold numbers of firesides, and he's attended many, went to seminary all 4 years given encouragement, some social pressure, etc. He's a great kid, as well, with dozens of friends on missions. I've never stood in the way of his investigating the LDS church, and was proud of him being selected as the seminary president. Anyway, he has always respectfully declined when pressed to consider baptism. Fast forward to the present, when the missionaries first started coming over to teach the middle son, my oldest took it upon himself to state his views on religion and his opinion that any church that claims to be the authentic, authoritative source of the Lord's official conduit of information is just plain wrong, at least on that point. I was somewhat stunned, both at his candor and because he & I have never talked about religion much, let alone Mormonism.]

Back to the baptism, in my remarks I told the audience / congregation that I grew up in Bountiful, fell away from the church as a teenager (didn't specify why) and told them that as I left Mormonism behind, I felt pretty isolated & depressed, but it was the right thing for me to do. In my time away I've learned that there are many, many people from a wide variety of religions & beliefs systems that have a great deal of truth to share, and I'm a much better person for being exposed to so much goodness. (I didn't share my experience in the Native American sweat lodge where - sans drugs - probably my most powerful "spiritual" experience. I think that would have made me a pariah among the local teenagers & made my son embarassed.)

I told them that in my judgement Mormonism has truth, as well, and I support my son's decision to be baptized LDS, with the caveat that if he decided to be LDS, I want him to be the best Mormon he can be, and if he falters, I'll kick his behind.

Afterward I had a couple dozen adults come up & thank me profusely for my comments - it was really flattering, but a little weird - and a few made a point to say they were "incredibly impressed" at how I'd handled things, etc, that many others would have been angry, said less than complimentary things about the LDS church, brought out some of the baggage, etc. I was grateful for their kind thoughts, impressed, amused, curious. (Later, after attending a few Sac & Testimony meetings and doing some mental math of the population in our ward compared to church attendance, I think the activity rate is around 30%, or so. I think the faithful are buoyed at any non-negative feedback from non-believers, seem to know there are problems. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, of course.)

I had no intention of being contrary in my remarks, but I felt I had to be honest about where I stand, how I've found a lot more truth being "outside", tacitly state that any thoughts that our entire family would come into the fold were probably misplaced, etc.

All in all, it was a very positive experience all the way around - my son is the talk of the town & the rest of us in the house maintain our dignity & keep our social esteem as non-Mormons intact.

My son has struck a chord with his feelings about the LDS church, and I respect that. We’re even tighter than we were before, and I’m hopeful he won’t start to believe our family is dysfunctional, is destined for the Telestial Kingdom, etc. After thinking I had a testimony at one time growing up, I came to the conclusion after a lot of deep thought, anguish and self doubt, that I could no longer accept the truth claims as being authentic. God gave me a brain & I used it, even though it isolated me from many in the community of my upbringing. That was not easy. In fact it really sucked.

I'm going to support my son in his budding faith, even though I can't be the super LDS dad who gives their kids priesthood blessing before big tests in school, etc. If he ever decides the church is not for him, I'll be there for him, help him with that transition.

For me, I've never been happier than where I am right now. It is a peace and settling truth I never found in organized religion. (Damn, that was a marathon post. lol)

[Solon]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You are Satan. You're nice enough, at times. You can converse. It's not that I hate you, or don't like you. But you are Satan.

If Satan were on this board, his posting would be indistinguishable from yours.

Satan isn't Bob McCue, whoever he is. He's not Schaff. He's someone that alternatively flatters and condemns. He fancies himself sophisticated.

He's around. He hangs out. At first it's not clear why he hangs out. And that's your first clue.

He gently sows doubt when he can. He pities you. He condescends. "You're so much better than you think. We are alike you know."

Do angels really hate Satan? I don't know. I think they probably disagree on many fundamental things. But maybe they converse. Maybe they battle in the arena of ideas. All Satan and God have, after all, are ideas.

Which idea do you like? I just happen to not like Satan's ideas. But of course, not everyone has the same taste.

Well, it's time for me to go to bed. I will pray to God tonight. And I will eschew Satan.

Maybe Satan's right.

[Clark Addison]

Ma'ake, that's a nice post and story.

[myboynoah]

Thanks for the update GBU. It sounds like you raised some great "self-thinking" kids, which should be the goal of us all.

I find your comments on and insights into the local culture to be spot on. I hope your son never feels forced (by the local culture) to look at your family as anything but celestial (sorry for inserting the LDS paradigm here). My read of The Gospel is that the tent is very large.

Good luck to you and your family and God bless.

[MikeWaters]

300 at a baptism? Impressive. Nice story.

Along the winding path of life, we are often surprised at the sights and experiences.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Ma'ake, thanks for turning an ugly thread into something genuinely thoughtful and uplifting. Continued best wishes to you and your family.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ma'ake, you are a good man. Best wishes to you and your family.

[Indy Coug]

Ma'ake is/was one of the few reasonable "liberal" voices on Cougarboard. Too bad he's a Ute.

[TripletDaddy]

Ma'ake, you are the man for doing this.

Your son will always remember the support your showed him on his baptismal day. It is clear you are a thoughtful and caring parent.

When I was baptized, nobody in my family came. I had plenty of friends and ward members, so I felt like it was basically a West Coast party (which, as we all know, "don't stop"). There were desserts and juices available for conspicuous consumption. My family has never been staunchly anti, but they were not excited about my joining the Church. I did anyway. It always bugged me a little that they were not there. Had they been there, it would have meant a lot to me, but I understood that they did not dig the Church. I wasnt looking for them to believe what I believed...only for them to support me as a person. To my family's credit, they had cool excuses....one sister said she had to work and my mom had to help at Scout-o-Rama that weekend (do they have Scout-o-Rama in other areas of the country?).

I am pretty sure your son appreciates your support and respect. Sounds like you guys have a great relationship. Congratulations, again.

PS If you want to share your sweat lodge story here, that would be quite acceptable (to the extent you feel it appropriate to share a private spiritual experience)...or, at the very least, how did you come upon the opportunity to enter a sweat lodge? I thought it was for tribe members only?