Speech still resounds

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SoCalCoug

My wife went through the same thing - except she was born into the church - she went away to school (the U - imagine that!) got pregnant and kept her daughter (now our daughter). She graduated and came back to her home ward as a single mom.

She gave a talk yesterday about the parable of the lost sheep. One of the points she wanted to make in the talk was that the lost sheep needed help and support, and not judgment. Her comment to me (but she didn't want to include it in her talk) was that she did not feel support from the ward, and essentially had to go through it all alone. Fortunately she had a wonderful bishop and supportive family. But the ward as a whole was much less supportive.

We're actually still in the ward, and it's a great ward (somehow marrying a divorced guy helped her stock), so we can't say that it's an unusually unsupportive or judgmental ward.

I think the church is a church of the majority - the unconventional and the unusual are not sought out, I think, by the church as an organization, in the absence of an assurance of conformity.

the ostracization your wife felt actually serves a social purpose. It provides the religious community at large with the consensus opinion that the person's behavior was wrong and not to be condoned, and that someone committing such behavior risks ostracization whether informal or formal (excommunication).

Basically people don't want kids getting the idea that such behavior is ok, and you can still be in completely good graces.

It's a real conundrum, because we are taught to accept and love these people, but the community must maintain its sense of right and wrong, and formal and informal ostracization is how it accomplishes it.

God bless the people who reached out to your wife.

[SeattleUte]

Thoughts:

1) Yes, Monson would not have generated the same "firestorm," but he would have been more easily ignored or dismissed. It's the fact that Beck was a woman that resonated with women who disagreed with her. Women who disagreed with Beck are used to rolling their eyes at 86 year old men telling them they're freaks if they're not just moms and perfectly happy as such.

2) I think "firestorm" is a gross overstatement. 500 women have signed a petition in protest? You don't say. That's like saying, just look how much Mormonism has changed, look at CG's liberal views and tolerant attitudes.

3) The LDS Church can afford to be magnanimous and give this microscopic minority a voice in its wholly owned rag. It's a sop. From what I've seen many LDS women agree with Beck, and maybe an even greater number have not given the matter much thought. This is no Tienanmen Square.

4) Waters is right about the purpose of ostrasization. It's too bad more people don't have the courage to test whether they might be happy without this community that's following such a primitive tribal ethos and treating them so cruelly. The Toscanos a case in point. What are they doing sticking around and still trying to . . what? . . . reach common ground?

5) The last lady to speak in the article, Aagard, what mass of insecurity. What's she doing at that gathering? Her whole Mormon world is on her side. What's she afraid of? She should follow her own advice, just tend her own garden, and not worry about whether these poor women who still want to be affiliated with their church and disagree with Beck "respect" her or not. If I were there I'd be tempted to treat her like I do exute, tell her to just shut up and get out of there.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Thoughts:

1) Yes, Monson would not have generated the same "firestorm," but he would have been more easily ignored or dismissed. It's the fact that Beck was a woman that resonated with women who disagreed with her. Women who disagreed with Beck are used to rolling their eyes at 86 year old men telling them they're freaks if they're not just moms and perfectly happy as such.

2) I think "firestorm" is a gross overstatement. 500 women have signed a petition in protest? You don't say. That's like saying, just look how much Mormonism has changed, look at CG's liberal views and tolerant attitudes.

3) The LDS Church can afford to be magnanimous and give this microscopic minority a voice in its wholly owned rag. It's a sop. From what I've seen many LDS women agree with Beck, and maybe an even greater number have not given the matter much thought. This is no Tienanmen Square.

4) Waters is right about the purpose of ostrasization. It's too bad more people don't have the courage to test whether they might be happy without this community that's following such a primitive tribal ethos and treating them so cruelly. The Toscanos a case in point. What are they doing sticking around and still trying to . . what? . . . reach common ground?

5) The last lady to speak in the article, Aagard, what mass of insecurity. What's she doing at that gathering? Her whole Mormon world is on her side. What's she afraid of? She should follow her own advice, just tend her own garden, and not worry about whether these poor women who still want to be affiliated with their church and disagree with Beck "respect" her or not. If I were there I'd be tempted to treat her like I do exute, tell her to just shut up and get out of there.

I don't disagree with some of your points, but I can't leave #5 alone. "A mass of insecurity"? How on earth do you know that? I imagine she was at the Sunstone Symposium for the same reason many others were--to partake in the forum of thought. You just can't win with you, SU--on the one hand, you claim we're a bunch of mindless followers, while at the same time telling those who are interested in hearing other's point-of-view to "shut up and get out of there". Who's insecure again?

That does remind me of the point I forgot to make about the article--the man at the end who tells her "you're a slave and you don't even know it". It's this kind of arrogant judgment that turns me (and many others, I'm sure) off of these types of gatherings. He has no clue what sacrifices she has made to raise five kids nor what her motivations were in making those sacrifices. A rare combination of arrogance and complete ignorance, and you're right on board with him. Congrats.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I don't disagree with some of your points, but I can't leave #5 alone. "A mass of insecurity"? How on earth do you know that? I imagine she was at the Sunstone Symposium for the same reason many others were--to partake in the forum of thought. You just can't win with you, SU--on the one hand, you claim we're a bunch of mindless followers, while at the same time telling those who are interested in hearing other's point-of-view to "shut up and get out of there". Who's insecure again?

That does remind me of the point I forgot to make about the article--the man at the end who tells her "you're a slave and you don't even know it". It's this kind of arrogant judgment that turns me (and many others, I'm sure) off of these types of gatherings. He has no clue what sacrifices she has made to raise five kids nor what her motivations were in making those sacrifices. A rare combination of arrogance and complete ignorance, and you're right on board with him. Congrats.

I said I'd feel like telling her to shut up and asking her to leave. I might not. I stand by my statement that a women with her views who's raising her children to live lives in perfect conformance with "the proclamation" and Beck's guilt-tripping is being ridiculous addressing this small coterie of disgruntled women in Salt Lake City of all places and telling them to "respect" her.

She's being childish. Their values are different. Of course there's a loss of respect. I respect Waters more than Il Padrino. I'm sure Il Padrino's grown up anough to appreciate why and not whine about it. Besides, she has numbers and power hugely on her side. So unlike the women she's addressing, she's not being confronted with the prospect of any type of coersion from doing what makes her happy. I'm sure the embattled and disrespected and ostracised women she's addressing would be happy to just leave her alone.

Why doesn't she leave them alone, in that forum of all places? Why is she asking them to respect her? This is not a worthile point to debate. She's insecure. I'm for open debate but I'm like most people here in that I don't engage exute or grapevine substantively. She's as silly as they are.

By the way, I'm always happy to engage Tex and Indy in intelligent debate. This woman was being childish and not deserving of intelligent rejoinder.

[exUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...249373,00.html

500 have signed on to the website. Sounds more like a pimple on an elephant's behind.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by exUte

500 have signed on to the website. Sounds more like a pimple on an elephant's behind.

What an original observation. Just shut the fuck up and get out of here.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I said I'd feel like telling her to shut up and asking her to leave. I might not. I stand by my statement that a women with her views who's raising her children to live lives in perfect conformance with "the proclamation" and Beck's guilt-tripping is being ridiculous addressing this small coterie of disgruntled women in Salt Lake City of all places and telling them to "respect" her.

She's being childish. Their values are different. Of course there's a loss of respect. I respect Waters more than Il Padrino. I'm sure Il Padrino's grown up anough to appreciate why and not whine about it. Besides, she has numbers and power hugely on her side. So unlike the women she's addressing, she's not being confronted with the prospect of any type of coersion from doing what makes her happy. I'm sure the embattled and disrespected and ostracised women she's addressing would be happy to just leave her alone.

Why doesn't she leave them alone, in that forum of all places? Why is she asking them to respect her? This is not a worthile point to debate. She's insecure. I'm for open debate but I'm like most people here in that I don't engage exute or grapevine substantively. She's as silly as they are.

By the way, I'm always happy to engage Tex and Indy in intelligent debate. This woman was being childish and not deserving of intelligent rejoinder.

I don't know how the discussion went as I wasn't present; it's therefore impossible for me to judge if it was the appropriate forum for her statement. If the topic was an open forum on Beck's talk, and not just a feel-good kum-ba-ya session for working mothers, I would think her viewpoint would be an appropriate part of the conversation. Again, I don't know, but neither do you.

However, I'm not sure there's any way to defend the man's statement. But really, give it a go. Tell me how he is more enlightened on the status of her life, her sacrifice, and her role in her marriage and family than she is. "You're a slave and you don't even know it"? The very fact that he feels he can say that tells me they need some alternative viewpoints.

I find it very ironic how closed purportedly "open" forums can be.

[MikeWaters]

ER, did anyone speak to the effect that stay at home moms should not be respected? that's the only way I can make sense of a demand to be respected.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Come on, exUte, give us the rest of the story about the Toscanos. I went to law school with Paul and thought I knew quite a bit about them, but I'm always open for more insight. Please provide it.

I didn't always agree with Paul, but he was always insightful and interesting. His "Confessions of a Would-be Zone Leader" that was published in the New Era while I was on my mission was really good. And I'll always be grateful to Paul for something he said at the end of a particularly boring class discussion in law school. He raised his hand and, when called upon, said "Mr. _________, if this discussion is a good example of the Socratic Method I have nothing but boundless sympathy for the men of ancient Athens."

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I don't know how the discussion went as I wasn't present; it's therefore impossible for me to judge if it was the appropriate forum for her statement. If the topic was an open forum on Beck's talk, and not just a feel-good kum-ba-ya session for working mothers, I would think her viewpoint would be an appropriate part of the conversation. Again, I don't know, but neither do you.

However, I'm not sure there's any way to defend the man's statement. But really, give it a go. Tell me how he is more enlightened on the status of her life, her sacrifice, and her role in her marriage and family than she is. "You're a slave and you don't even know it"? The very fact that he feels he can say that tells me they need some alternative viewpoints.

I find it very ironic how closed purportedly "open" forums can be.

Do I seem like someone who hasn't made up his mind? I agree this is wholly about values, and don't shrink from declaring mine are superior from Ms. Beck's and those who are pulling her puppet strings. I hate what she's doing to my nieces and young cousins. I hate what her predecessors did to women I've loved of pervious generations. Yes, those are my values. I think they're better than Mormon values, more humane, more conducive to excellence, and joy. Get used to being told your values are lacking, Mormons. How does it feel? Yes, open debate means this is a two way street.

I agree with the man who called her an ignorant slave more than I agree with her. I'm happy to engage folks, but I'll tell them if I disagree. I don't agree with the way that woman is raising her daughters. I think she's putting a glass ceiling over their capacity for growth and fulfullment. I thnk she's raising her sons to be sexist, possibly mysoginistic brutes. That's what I believe, and I appreciate what that man is trying to say to her, though he may have been more tactful.

The woman is a kook. She said she's delibirately raising her daughters to not have letters after their last names. It's telling she noted she's the same as she's raising her daughters. She might as well be telling me she's binding her baby daughters' feet or circumcising her girls. To the extent it matters, by the way, mainstream American society is on my side, and the guy's side who called her a slave, not hers.