Why do we need a Savior? - Page 2 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

JohnnyLingo · 02-11-2006, 01:17 AM

Quote:

The universal laws of justice demand a sacrifice to satisfy broken laws by a sinner. Without that, some universal incongruence will result. Our Savior was that sacrifice.

Thanks, Archaea... this is the road my thoughts were taking.

So there are unbreakable laws. I've heard that God has His power because He keeps all these natural laws. If He chose to break one of these laws, he would cease to exist.

Hmm.

tooblue · 02-11-2006, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooblue

The only way justice can be satisfied is if another person literally experienced the same sorrow, pain and suffering you felt at any given moment of your life when you transgressed, injured or were wonded in any and all capacities within the construct of mortality.

The mediator, who literally pays for your sins, must be a peer, born into this realm of existence.

To my way of thinking, that's a wholly unsatisfactory answer. Why must there be a mediator? Why must that mediator be a peer? Why does that mediator need to be born into this realm of existence? Why is this the only way justice can be served? Why is justice even necessary?

We hear all these sweeping pronouncements of why the plan of salvation and the atonement are necessary, but none of it rings true to me. If there really is a God and if he is powerful enough to create a universe, I've got to think that he could have laid things out any way he wanted. The whole notion that we are placed on earth on some kind of cosmic probation and that the only way we can get through it satisfactorily is through an atonement, just seems like a lot of mumbo jumbo to me. I'm not trying to be offensive or insult anybody's beliefs, but it is honestly difficult for me to believe that all of these things are really necessary.

Then I would ask you what makes God ...God?

non sequitur · 02-11-2006, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooblue

Then I would ask you what makes God ...God?

I have no idea what makes God ...God, but I honestly don't see how that question is helpful.

tooblue · 02-11-2006, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooblue

Then I would ask you what makes God ...God?

I have no idea what makes God ...God, but I honestly don't see how that question is helpful.

The answer lies in Johnny Lingo's post above mine ...

Quote:

there are unbreakable laws. I've heard that God has His power because He keeps all these natural laws. If He chose to break one of these laws, he would cease to exist.

... My intent is not to be oblique, such unbreakable laws are universal -God did not create them therefore God cannot break them.

tooblue · 02-11-2006, 01:36 AM

Therefore a mediator is required to satisfy the demands of Justice on behalf of those universal laws.

SteelBlue · 02-11-2006, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

I've heard that God has His power because He keeps all these natural laws. If He chose to break one of these laws, he would cease to exist.

Hmm.

Cease to be God maybe, but cease to exist? No.

All-American · 02-11-2006, 05:26 AM

Am I safe in assuming that you've read Alma 34 and 42 with this question in mind?

myboynoah · 02-11-2006, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooblue

The only way justice can be satisfied is if another person literally experienced the same sorrow, pain and suffering you felt at any given moment of your life when you transgressed, injured or were wonded in any and all capacities within the construct of mortality.

The mediator, who literally pays for your sins, must be a peer, born into this realm of existence.

To my way of thinking, that's a wholly unsatisfactory answer. Why must there be a mediator? Why must that mediator be a peer? Why does that mediator need to be born into this realm of existence? Why is this the only way justice can be served? Why is justice even necessary?

We hear all these sweeping pronouncements of why the plan of salvation and the atonement are necessary, but none of it rings true to me. If there really is a God and if he is powerful enough to create a universe, I've got to think that he could have laid things out any way he wanted. The whole notion that we are placed on earth on some kind of cosmic probation and that the only way we can get through it satisfactorily is through an atonement, just seems like a lot of mumbo jumbo to me. I'm not trying to be offensive or insult anybody's beliefs, but it is honestly difficult for me to believe that all of these things are really necessary.

Yeah, I think you've captured my question on this very well. The pat answers seem circular to me. Yet the Christian world accepts this paradigm with little or no question. Basically by virtue of our presence here we are incapable of progressing further in our existence (and for some, the alternative is eternal burning

). In order for the dichotomy to be resolved, our God must come to earth in bodily form so that we can kill Him/Her in a torturous bloody ritual, which we all then celebrate. Muslims must think us very odd.

This is where faith comes in, as well as the need for two or three witnesses. Archaea’s response makes the most sense to me.

tooblue · 02-11-2006, 01:04 PM

Archea's response and my response are one and the same thing ?! The best articualtion of answers to thsi question are written by Alma in the Book of Mormon.

Muslims don't find it odd -have you read the Koran and delved into what should be done with the infidel or impure woman :shock:

All-American · 02-11-2006, 03:34 PM

Well, here's my take on the question. (All of this can be taken as gospel truth, of course, for thus saith All-American.)

Problem number one is that it is sinners cannot be in the presence of God. I am not referring to those who have sinned and repented, but those who have sinned and never stopped sinning. This introduces imperfection into the precence of God. Allowing imperfection in the presence of perfection is akin to allowing yeast in the presence of dough-- it will spread. Hugh Nibley gave the example of a building that was intended to stand forever. The lightest imperfection, given an infinite amount of time and exposure to an infinite amount of variables, will eventually be exploited and lead to the destruction of the building. Only a perfect, flawless building will endure forever; similarly, if imperfection is introduced into a perfect, flawless system, it will eventually undermine the whole process.

Problem number two is the injustice of allowing those who have sinned into heaven while excluding those who have sinned, but not repented, since they are both essentially guilty of the same crime. The problem may be explained thusly:

God's power is ultimately tied to the faith of those whom he commands, ranging from His children to the dust of the earth. When God commands, He is obeyed out of faith. Lectures on Faith teach that God must have six attributes in order for Faith in Him to be exercized:

[Lec 3:13] First, that he was God before the world was created, and the same God that he was after it was created.

[Lec 3:14] Second, that he is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abundant in goodness, and that he was so from everlasting, and will be to everlasting.

[Lec 3:15] Third, that he changes not, neither is there variableness with him; but that he is the same from everlasting to everlasting, being the same yesterday today and forever; and that his course is one eternal round, without variation.

[Lec 3:16] Fourth, that he is a God of truth and cannot lie.

[Lec 3:17] Fifth, that he is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted of him.

[Lec 3:18] Sixth, that he is love.

(Notice that this has an awful lot of connection to the old first discussion: "We know that God lives. We want to share with you our feelings about God. God is perfect, all-wise, and all-powerful. He is also merciful, kind, and just. We know that we can have faith in him. We can love him with all our hearts." The very first thing missionaries teach investigators are the things necessary to have faith in God. Interesting, huh?)

God's maintanence of these attributes are necessary for us to continue to exercize faith in Him. Jeffrey R. Holland said:

"We would not have the faith, due to fear, to live righteously or to love better or to repent more readily if somehow we didn't think that justice would count for us, if somehow we thought that God would change his mind and decide there was another set of rules. Because we know that God is just and would cease to be God if he weren't so, we have the faith." ("Borne Upon Eagles' Wings, 2 June 1947, http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6053)

The problem inherent in this system is that putting those who have sinned in the presence of God is an injustice against those that were excluded. Thus a Savior is necessary to override the demands of justice. The suffering of Christ allows for Him to extend forgiveness of sins.

D&C 45:3-5 shows the main requirement for entrance into heaven. Every now and again, I ask fellow members of the church what the requirement is to enter heaven, and I usually hear obedience, ordinances, so forth-- something that WE do. But here's what the scripture says:

Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

Anyway, hope that answers at least one question. Answers to questions on the atonement usually tend to raise even more questions, but so far, they all seem to have answers.

02-11-2006, 05:26 AM	#17
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	Am I safe in assuming that you've read Alma 34 and 42 with this question in mind? __________________ εν αρχη ην ο λογος

02-11-2006, 03:34 PM	#20
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	Well, here's my take on the question. (All of this can be taken as gospel truth, of course, for thus saith All-American.) Problem number one is that it is sinners cannot be in the presence of God. I am not referring to those who have sinned and repented, but those who have sinned and never stopped sinning. This introduces imperfection into the precence of God. Allowing imperfection in the presence of perfection is akin to allowing yeast in the presence of dough-- it will spread. Hugh Nibley gave the example of a building that was intended to stand forever. The lightest imperfection, given an infinite amount of time and exposure to an infinite amount of variables, will eventually be exploited and lead to the destruction of the building. Only a perfect, flawless building will endure forever; similarly, if imperfection is introduced into a perfect, flawless system, it will eventually undermine the whole process. Problem number two is the injustice of allowing those who have sinned into heaven while excluding those who have sinned, but not repented, since they are both essentially guilty of the same crime. The problem may be explained thusly: God's power is ultimately tied to the faith of those whom he commands, ranging from His children to the dust of the earth. When God commands, He is obeyed out of faith. Lectures on Faith teach that God must have six attributes in order for Faith in Him to be exercized: [Lec 3:13] First, that he was God before the world was created, and the same God that he was after it was created. [Lec 3:14] Second, that he is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abundant in goodness, and that he was so from everlasting, and will be to everlasting. [Lec 3:15] Third, that he changes not, neither is there variableness with him; but that he is the same from everlasting to everlasting, being the same yesterday today and forever; and that his course is one eternal round, without variation. [Lec 3:16] Fourth, that he is a God of truth and cannot lie. [Lec 3:17] Fifth, that he is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted of him. [Lec 3:18] Sixth, that he is love. (Notice that this has an awful lot of connection to the old first discussion: "We know that God lives. We want to share with you our feelings about God. God is perfect, all-wise, and all-powerful. He is also merciful, kind, and just. We know that we can have faith in him. We can love him with all our hearts." The very first thing missionaries teach investigators are the things necessary to have faith in God. Interesting, huh?) God's maintanence of these attributes are necessary for us to continue to exercize faith in Him. Jeffrey R. Holland said: "We would not have the faith, due to fear, to live righteously or to love better or to repent more readily if somehow we didn't think that justice would count for us, if somehow we thought that God would change his mind and decide there was another set of rules. Because we know that God is just and would cease to be God if he weren't so, we have the faith." ("Borne Upon Eagles' Wings, 2 June 1947, http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6053) The problem inherent in this system is that putting those who have sinned in the presence of God is an injustice against those that were excluded. Thus a Savior is necessary to override the demands of justice. The suffering of Christ allows for Him to extend forgiveness of sins. D&C 45:3-5 shows the main requirement for entrance into heaven. Every now and again, I ask fellow members of the church what the requirement is to enter heaven, and I usually hear obedience, ordinances, so forth-- something that WE do. But here's what the scripture says: Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him— Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified; Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life. Anyway, hope that answers at least one question. Answers to questions on the atonement usually tend to raise even more questions, but so far, they all seem to have answers. __________________ εν αρχη ην ο λογος

02-11-2006, 01:36 AM	#15
tooblue Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,016	Therefore a mediator is required to satisfy the demands of Justice on behalf of those universal laws.

02-11-2006, 01:04 PM	#19
tooblue Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 4,016	Archea's response and my response are one and the same thing ?! The best articualtion of answers to thsi question are written by Alma in the Book of Mormon. Muslims don't find it odd -have you read the Koran and delved into what should be done with the infidel or impure woman :shock: