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Brian · 08-28-2007, 03:46 AM

didn't brown have the work ethic of a bag duct tape factory repair parts?

Donuthole · 08-28-2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

didn't brown have the work ethic of a bag duct tape factory repair parts?

I'm not sure that was a complete sentence, but I catch your drift. And yes, his work ethic/commitment to the game has always been in question. Though part of that has to do with the fact that MJ drafted him and when he wasn't all that MJ predicted him to be, MJ started to publicly bad mouth his work ethic to save his own face for having drafted him so high.

UteStar · 08-28-2007, 05:01 AM

No offense Donut, because I do know that you know your basketball, but your comments on comparing Kwame and Bogut is about as ridiculous as it gets. To try and compare them with some stats is silly at best.

Kwame was a disaster in Washington. Not just using his stats, he was horrific on defense and on offensive sets. It was a running joke about how he looked more comfortable answering nuclear physics questions over being able to understand an offensive set. Coaches kept him in games and actually ran offenses for him because he would become disinterested without it and would be confused unless someone was getting him the ball. He disrupted his own team on both sides of the ball. His stats were padded by his coaches feeling obligated to get him the ball more than he deserved. I have rarely seen an athlete so disliked as he was in the DC area. He had little interest in improving himself, helping his teammates or in even just being a solid ball player.

Blaming MJ for Kwame is the easy out and it is a wrong assumption. Kwame has failed because he could not will himself into being a better ball player. MJ screwed up by making him the first pick. Kwame screwed up by not being interested in getting better. Bad combination.

Bogut has been thrust in a situation where he is not the first or second option due to his guards loving to shoot the ball. Bogut will be good...superstar? Probably not, but I have no doubt that over the next 2-3 years, he will be a 16-18ppg scorer to go along with 10 boards and 3-4 assists while shooting around 55%. I can think of about 25 GMs that would take that over what they currently have at center. I can also think of about 30 GMs that would take Bogut without a second thought over Kwame, notwithstanding your use of stats to compare the two.

Donuthole · 08-28-2007, 02:06 PM

You are focusing on Kwame's first 2 season in the NBA, where he would have been a freshman and sophomore in college.

His third season is when he put up the referenced stats. Then, in his fourth season he was injured for half the season. Granted, he's been injured off an on ever since then, but that's beside the point.

I'm not sure why Bogut not being a first or second option is even noteworthy, since I can say the same about Kwame. Moreover, if the Bucks had such great faith in Bogut, they probably wouldn't have gone out and traded for another young big last offseason. Also, Bogut has received nearly the exact same criticisms regarding his defense, and is generally considered a defensive disappointment thus far, averaging less than a half block a game, and nearly 4 fouls per game.

Keep in mind that I never said I would take Brown over Bogut. I merely pointed out the fact that, at the same age, Kwame and Bogut's statistics are strikingly similar. I do not doubt that Bogut will be a better NBA player than Kwame. However, when all is said and done, Bogut will be viewed as an underachiever for the #1 overall pick, just as Kwame Brown is, though perhaps not to the same extent.

UteStar · 08-28-2007, 07:53 PM

No, I wasn't focusing on his first 2 seasons in the NBA. I was focusing on his time in DC. The stats were not atrocious during his 3rd season for the Wizards, but everything that I said in my post about his attitude, work ethic, plays not being able to be run because he didn't know how to run them, etc. were all the case up thru his 4th season in DC. He was a complete disaster there but he played some decent minutes for a variety of reasons--he was a #1 pick, the Wiz were going nowhere, they had no big men to challenge him, etc. You said the stats were comparable...and I am arguing that there were reasons for that and that the stats tell nowhere near the whole story with Kwame.

I lived in DC during his 'reign' of terror...I went to the games and I watched the games. His stats tell a story of how different he was as a player and how his numbers were often inflated.

I have no idea how Bogut will be viewed in the future. No, he is not the best player in that class...but he is young and improved drastically from the year before and I will be curious as to what he does in the years to come.

Also, I am not sure who you are talking about the Bucks trading for a young big man and that is a sign of not being happy with Bogut. Are you talking about Villanueva? If so, you do realize they play different positions, don't you? Yeah, you can say that both can move back and forth between the PF and C positions, but they did play together a lot when Villa was healthy. Was there another big man that you were talking about to show their lack of confidence in Bogut?

DrumNFeather · 08-28-2007, 08:04 PM

For the record...Lingo drafted Alex Smith on his Fantasy Football team...

Donuthole · 08-28-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UteStar

Also, I am not sure who you are talking about the Bucks trading for a young big man and that is a sign of not being happy with Bogut. Are you talking about Villanueva? If so, you do realize they play different positions, don't you? Yeah, you can say that both can move back and forth between the PF and C positions, but they did play together a lot when Villa was healthy. Was there another big man that you were talking about to show their lack of confidence in Bogut?

Absent a few exceptions in today's NBA, the 4 and 5 positions are interchangeable. I think the Bucks expected Bogut to be better both offensively and defensively than he was his first season, and when he wasn't, they had to go get Villanueva to compliment him. I realize they play alongside one another, when healthy, but they traded away a lottery pick PG for Villanueva. Generally, if you have your franchise big man, you're looking for your franchise guard to compliment him, not another big man.

You mention that Bogut improved drastically from his rookie to his sophomore years, which I think is a gross overstatement.

His rookie year he averaged 9.4ppg 7.0rpg 2.3apg 0.8bpg 1.52 topg and 3.2pfpg, in 28.4 minutes.

Last season he averaged 12.3, 8.8, 3.0, 0.5, 2.27 and 3.3 in 34.2mpg.

Calling that improvement is questionable, but calling it drastic improvement is ridiculous.

UteStar · 08-28-2007, 08:16 PM

You got me...it was not a 'drastic' improvement. It was an improvement though and I think we will see more improvement from him this coming year as an injury did slow him last year. But I am still surprised about how you think Villanueva was brought in because Bogut was disappointing. Every single NBA expert, every talking head and most fans could not believe that the Bucks could get Villanueva and only give up TJ Ford. That was a steal and it had nothing to do with Bogut.

The Bucks did it because they had an injured, often out of control point guard in TJ Ford. They had a backup who they felt was just as good, if not better and healthier player in MoWilliams. Seriously, are you kidding about that trade. That is a complete no brainer to do a trade like that. Now, you have 2 young big men which is ideal in the league. Who would not have made that trade? It sounds like you wouldn't have done that trade which is just strange. I knew that the Bucks were going to trade Ford as MoWilliams developed...I just had no idea they could find someone to give them a young quality big man for him. That was a great trade.

Donuthole · 08-28-2007, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UteStar

You got me...it was not a 'drastic' improvement. It was an improvement though and I think we will see more improvement from him this coming year as an injury did slow him last year. But I am still surprised about how you think Villanueva was brought in because Bogut was disappointing. Every single NBA expert, every talking head and most fans could not believe that the Bucks could get Villanueva and only give up TJ Ford. That was a steal and it had nothing to do with Bogut.

The Bucks did it because they had an injured, often out of control point guard in TJ Ford. They had a backup who they felt was just as good, if not better and healthier player in MoWilliams. Seriously, are you kidding about that trade. That is a complete no brainer to do a trade like that. Now, you have 2 young big men which is ideal in the league. Who would not have made that trade? It sounds like you wouldn't have done that trade which is just strange. I knew that the Bucks were going to trade Ford as MoWilliams developed...I just had no idea they could find someone to give them a young quality big man for him. That was a great trade.

I haven't said I wouldn't have done that trade. In fact, I remember distinctly my reaction of shock that trade come across the wire, as it definitely seemed one-sided in Millwakee's favor. I was surprised, however, at how well Ford played this past season, so the trade seems to have been the rare mutually beneficial trade.

What I was trying to say was that I think the Bucks initially hoped that Bogut would have been more of a presence on both offense and defense, thus allowing him to play alongside someone like Magloire or Gadzuric, who would leave them the cap space to sign a complimentary wing player to go with Redd. When they discovered that Bogut wasn't offensively polished enough to compensate for an offensive liability as his counterpart in the paint, they decided to go after another big to compliment him. I think they were probably as shocked as everybody else that Toronto was willing to part with Villanueva for Ford.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Bucks, as CV and Bogut both come up for extensions at the same time, and both will probably be asking for 'maxish' money.

UteStar · 08-28-2007, 08:54 PM

I understand what you are saying...I guess the difference is, I don't think the Bucks were out to try and find someone to help Bogut...because this deal would have happened even if Bogut was averaging 20 points and 10 boards a game. This was just that good of a trade...not a desperation trade of a team trying to help Bogut.

And yes, I still argue that your comparison of Kwame's overall game to Boguts is ludicrous.

08-28-2007, 03:46 AM	#11
Brian Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oak Ridge, TN Posts: 1,308	didn't brown have the work ethic of a bag duct tape factory repair parts? __________________ e^(i * pi) + 1 = 0 5 great numbers in one little equation.

08-28-2007, 02:06 PM	#14
Donuthole Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 175	You are focusing on Kwame's first 2 season in the NBA, where he would have been a freshman and sophomore in college. His third season is when he put up the referenced stats. Then, in his fourth season he was injured for half the season. Granted, he's been injured off an on ever since then, but that's beside the point. I'm not sure why Bogut not being a first or second option is even noteworthy, since I can say the same about Kwame. Moreover, if the Bucks had such great faith in Bogut, they probably wouldn't have gone out and traded for another young big last offseason. Also, Bogut has received nearly the exact same criticisms regarding his defense, and is generally considered a defensive disappointment thus far, averaging less than a half block a game, and nearly 4 fouls per game. Keep in mind that I never said I would take Brown over Bogut. I merely pointed out the fact that, at the same age, Kwame and Bogut's statistics are strikingly similar. I do not doubt that Bogut will be a better NBA player than Kwame. However, when all is said and done, Bogut will be viewed as an underachiever for the #1 overall pick, just as Kwame Brown is, though perhaps not to the same extent. __________________ Join the Prospective Utah Student Section today! Last edited by Donuthole; 08-28-2007 at 02:15 PM.

08-28-2007, 08:04 PM	#16
DrumNFeather Active LDS Ute Fan Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nantucket : ) Posts: 2,566	For the record...Lingo drafted Alex Smith on his Fantasy Football team... __________________ "It's not like we played the school of the blind out there." - Brian Johnson.

08-28-2007, 05:01 AM	#13
UteStar Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,817	No offense Donut, because I do know that you know your basketball, but your comments on comparing Kwame and Bogut is about as ridiculous as it gets. To try and compare them with some stats is silly at best. Kwame was a disaster in Washington. Not just using his stats, he was horrific on defense and on offensive sets. It was a running joke about how he looked more comfortable answering nuclear physics questions over being able to understand an offensive set. Coaches kept him in games and actually ran offenses for him because he would become disinterested without it and would be confused unless someone was getting him the ball. He disrupted his own team on both sides of the ball. His stats were padded by his coaches feeling obligated to get him the ball more than he deserved. I have rarely seen an athlete so disliked as he was in the DC area. He had little interest in improving himself, helping his teammates or in even just being a solid ball player. Blaming MJ for Kwame is the easy out and it is a wrong assumption. Kwame has failed because he could not will himself into being a better ball player. MJ screwed up by making him the first pick. Kwame screwed up by not being interested in getting better. Bad combination. Bogut has been thrust in a situation where he is not the first or second option due to his guards loving to shoot the ball. Bogut will be good...superstar? Probably not, but I have no doubt that over the next 2-3 years, he will be a 16-18ppg scorer to go along with 10 boards and 3-4 assists while shooting around 55%. I can think of about 25 GMs that would take that over what they currently have at center. I can also think of about 30 GMs that would take Bogut without a second thought over Kwame, notwithstanding your use of stats to compare the two.

08-28-2007, 07:53 PM	#15
UteStar Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,817	No, I wasn't focusing on his first 2 seasons in the NBA. I was focusing on his time in DC. The stats were not atrocious during his 3rd season for the Wizards, but everything that I said in my post about his attitude, work ethic, plays not being able to be run because he didn't know how to run them, etc. were all the case up thru his 4th season in DC. He was a complete disaster there but he played some decent minutes for a variety of reasons--he was a #1 pick, the Wiz were going nowhere, they had no big men to challenge him, etc. You said the stats were comparable...and I am arguing that there were reasons for that and that the stats tell nowhere near the whole story with Kwame. I lived in DC during his 'reign' of terror...I went to the games and I watched the games. His stats tell a story of how different he was as a player and how his numbers were often inflated. I have no idea how Bogut will be viewed in the future. No, he is not the best player in that class...but he is young and improved drastically from the year before and I will be curious as to what he does in the years to come. Also, I am not sure who you are talking about the Bucks trading for a young big man and that is a sign of not being happy with Bogut. Are you talking about Villanueva? If so, you do realize they play different positions, don't you? Yeah, you can say that both can move back and forth between the PF and C positions, but they did play together a lot when Villa was healthy. Was there another big man that you were talking about to show their lack of confidence in Bogut?

08-28-2007, 08:16 PM	#18
UteStar Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,817	You got me...it was not a 'drastic' improvement. It was an improvement though and I think we will see more improvement from him this coming year as an injury did slow him last year. But I am still surprised about how you think Villanueva was brought in because Bogut was disappointing. Every single NBA expert, every talking head and most fans could not believe that the Bucks could get Villanueva and only give up TJ Ford. That was a steal and it had nothing to do with Bogut. The Bucks did it because they had an injured, often out of control point guard in TJ Ford. They had a backup who they felt was just as good, if not better and healthier player in MoWilliams. Seriously, are you kidding about that trade. That is a complete no brainer to do a trade like that. Now, you have 2 young big men which is ideal in the league. Who would not have made that trade? It sounds like you wouldn't have done that trade which is just strange. I knew that the Bucks were going to trade Ford as MoWilliams developed...I just had no idea they could find someone to give them a young quality big man for him. That was a great trade.

08-28-2007, 08:54 PM	#20
UteStar Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,817	I understand what you are saying...I guess the difference is, I don't think the Bucks were out to try and find someone to help Bogut...because this deal would have happened even if Bogut was averaging 20 points and 10 boards a game. This was just that good of a trade...not a desperation trade of a team trying to help Bogut. And yes, I still argue that your comparison of Kwame's overall game to Boguts is ludicrous.