And now for some REAL torture ...

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I am sure waterboarding is quite enjoyable. I hear they serve popcorn and soda (oh, but the inflated prices at the non-torturehouse!). From what I understand, it is kind of like swimming without all the hassle of changing into a swimsuit. I have frequently heard it called "child's play." I distinctly recall an episode of Leave it to Beaver where the Beav was waterboarded by Wally. The look of their mother's face when she caught the Wally was priceless. Who could ever forget her hands on her hips as she fought to keep a warm smile off of her face? "Oh Wally, are you waterboarding the Beav again?"

Sleep deprivation is kind of like a natural high. You can start seeing and hearing things WITHOUT drugs. Pretty amazing, if you ask me. I have heard it described as the world's longest pajama party. If you are really lucky, they will even break out naked twister!!! The alligator clips connected to your nipples can get you so excited you will want to jump up and down screaming "Richard Simmons! Richard Simmons!" while clapping gleefully.

Only the truly fortunate will also get peed on. I hear you can even request R. Kelly for the ceremony.

Hey, you're coming around, Cali - Soon, you'll be voting for the good guys.

Torture is torture, not matter what it is. I really don't see varying degrees.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I distinctly recall an episode of Leave it to Beaver where the Beav was waterboarded by Wally. The look of their mother's face when she caught the Wally was priceless. Who could ever forget her hands on her hips as she fought to keep a warm smile off of her face? "Oh Wally, are you waterboarding the Beav again?" "Gee mom, he doesn't mind, do ya Beav?"

If Leave it to Beaver intended to accurately portray the relationship between brothers, torture would have certainly been involved. Sure, Wally didn't waterboard the Beav, but he certainly would have used titty twisters, noogies, wedgies, dead arms, indian burns, wet willy's, headlocks, tickle torture, and thumping on the chest with the middle knuckle protruding from the fist. Who knows what could have happened when Eddie Haskell got involved?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UteStar

Then what do you call it Tex. I don't see why both would not be torture to varying degrees.

Because it's not torture.

Originally Posted by UteStar

In regards to waterboarding. Nice to know that it is child's play. I think that comment alone lets me know just about well you understand things.

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I am sure waterboarding is quite enjoyable. ...

Sleep deprivation is kind of like a natural high. ... The alligator clips connected to your nipples can get you so excited

... Only the truly fortunate will also get peed on. I hear you can even request R. Kelly for the ceremony.

I guess no one understands the term "idiomatic expression" either. Waterboarding and sleep deprivation are indeed "child's play" (read: trivial by comparison) compared to what's in that book.

Please provide evidence documenting the regular and sanctioned use of urination or electrical current attached to nipples by US troops or interrogators. Hint: you won't find any.

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Torture is torture, not matter what it is. I really don't see varying degrees.

Sleep deprivation, and drilling a hole through the hand. Waterboarding, and dragging someone behind a car.

Yeah, you're right, those are roughly equivalent.

By the way ... lest we lose perspective: as best we know, waterboarding was practiced on only a select few. Only the hardest, most vicious, most senior terrorists were subjected to it. That's not an argument for its moral rightness or wrongness, but it dispenses with the myth that every "innocent" terrorist that walked in the door was subjected to it.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Tex

Because it's not torture.

Mr. Tex,

I'm not certain the rest of us have time to go round in circles with you regarding what the rest of the educated, first world nations (and all major human rights agencies) regard as torture policies unacceptable for the supposed leader of the free world.

So I have a suggestion:

You fly down to Gitmo and check it out for us. And I don't mean just a long weekend. Stay for a good few weeks so you have time to explore the really nasty sections they don't like visitors to see. Make sure you see the police dogs in action and get a chance to chat with the psychiatrists hired to ensure the practices are as miserable and fear-inducing as possible. If you can swing it, watch as someone is force-administered an enema, then chained to the floor naked to lie in his own shit for days.

When you finish up there, head over to the black sites, where non-agents of the U.S. government employ techniques outlawed at Gitmo. There are several options, but you might consider Uzbekistan, where if you're really lucky you might just see someone boiled to death.

Of course these might just be exaggerations by the vast left-wing conspiracy, which is why we need you to check everything out first-hand. Make sure to update us on your findings and don't forget to send me a postcard!
Thx!!

~babs.



Sources Consulted:

* Lewis, Neil. Guantanamo tour focuses on medical ethics. New York Times November 13 2005.
* Lewis, Neil. Red Cross finds detainee abuse in Guantanamo. New York Times November 30 2005.
* Mayer, Jane. The experiment. New Yorker July 11 2005.
* Program on International Policy Attitudes. Global views on US. January 2007. (See question M2 part d.) Available online: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...n07_quaire.pdf
* Toobin, Jeffrey. Inside the wire. New Yorker February 9 2004.
* Van Natta, Jr, Don. U.S. recruits a rough ally to be a jailer. New York Times May 1 2005.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Mr. Tex,

I'm not certain the rest of us have time to go round in circles with you regarding what the rest of the educated, first world nations (and all major human rights agencies) regard as torture policies unacceptable for the supposed leader of the free world.

Mrs. Gordon,

Thank you for your polite response.

You are making a combination appeal to authority and appeal to popularity. The opinions of many (nameless) first world nations and (nameless) major human rights agencies are irrelevant. Even were I to accept this premise, I would argue there is no nation or agency in the world that carries enough moral high ground to dictate to America what she should or should not do in the interests of her own defense.

And please don't cite Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International. They are both clearly anti-American establishments. I believe the Red Cross--a respectable organization--has met with nearly all of the "high-profile" detainees and many of the lesser ones. I'm not aware of any significant criticism.

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

So I have a suggestion:

~babs.

The rest of this is equally irrelevant. The assumption is that if I just watched the interrogation techniques I would change my mind and agree with you and the "rest of the world." I could be irrelevant in turn, and suggest you turn one of your family members over to al-Qaeda for "a good few weeks" and see if you feel such strong objections to the terrorists' treatment thereafter, but I won't. Troglodyte that I am, you'll simply have to be more convincing than condescending if you want to be persuasive.

One wonders if the truly tortuous acts of America take place in the "nasty sections they don't like visitors to see," how is it that you know so much about them?

I never claimed these techniques were pleasant. (Again, "child's play" is an idiom ... a metaphorical expression.) They are of course unpleasant, because these are unpleasant people hell bent on committing unpleasant acts. There are ways to extract the information we need from them without losing our humanity. Where to draw the line is where you and I disagree.

In the end, torture is a matter of opinion. As someone else observed, it's like obscenity: an "I know it when I see it" issue, and as such, we debate it. I have my opinion and you have yours, and we talk about it like the civilized folk that we are.

If you don't have time to "go round in circles" with me, may I gently suggest you opt not to respond--nay, even read--my posts any longer.

Regards,
Mr. Tex

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Tex

Mrs. Gordon,
may I gently suggest you opt not to respond--nay, even read--my posts any longer.
Regards,
Mr. Tex

agreed.

[Detroitdad]

Tex-

Would you be comfortable with our troops undergoing waterboarding, sleep deprivation and the rest? If not, why? If so, why?
I am not asking whether you believe that those and worse would be used on our troops (as I am sure they would). Just whether you think that those interrogation techniques would be legitimate if used by our enemies against us.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

While I have not followed the press releases of the Red Cross closely enough to say what they think about the situation, the Pope has certainly made his views clear on the subject. My guess would be that the Red Cross has similar feelings.

According to the New York Times of 11/30/2004, page 1A, the ICRC has in fact determined that the abuses at Guantanamo qualify as torture.

[Frank Ryan]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I am sure waterboarding is quite enjoyable. I hear they serve popcorn and soda (oh, but the inflated prices at the non-torturehouse!). From what I understand, it is kind of like swimming without all the hassle of changing into a swimsuit. I have frequently heard it called "child's play." I distinctly recall an episode of Leave it to Beaver where the Beav was waterboarded by Wally. The look of their mother's face when she caught the Wally was priceless. Who could ever forget her hands on her hips as she fought to keep a warm smile off of her face? "Oh Wally, are you waterboarding the Beav again?" "Gee mom, he doesn't mind, do ya Beav?"

Sleep deprivation is kind of like a natural high. You can start seeing and hearing things WITHOUT drugs. Pretty amazing, if you ask me. I have heard it described as the world's longest pajama party. If you are really lucky, they will even break out naked twister!!! The alligator clips connected to your nipples can get you so excited you will want to jump up and down screaming "Richard Simmons! Richard Simmons!" while clapping gleefully.

Only the truly fortunate will also get peed on. I hear you can even request R. Kelly for the ceremony.

LOL

[All-American]

Anybody ever see the Mythbusters episode on the Chinese water torture? They strapped the girl (Kari, I believe) into the chair and did the experiment on her. She was told that at any time, she could ask to be let go and they would immediately comply. They kept the water temperature reasonable, and basically did everything they could to make it as pleasant and comfortable an experience as possible, with the exception of the water drops. She freaked out. They tried it on one of the guys in a lazy boy with no restraints whatsoever, and he only lasted a few minutes. Painful? Absolutely not. Torture? Absolutely.