MMM and its lessons

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

your dislike of me clouds your mind to the point that the true answers out there elude you.

If I were to come as a prophet, it would not be as the majestic buck, or the proud lion, or anything apparent and fitting. I would come as the skunk. If you can get past the spray I just landed on you, you'll find something quite interesting.

I don't dislike you. I think you are a pretty amusing and very bright guy. But as for me, I will look for my prophet elsewhere for now, if it's all the same to you.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

your dislike of me clouds your mind to the point that the true answers out there elude you.

If I were to come as a prophet, it would not be as the majestic buck, or the proud lion, or anything apparent and fitting. I would come as the skunk. If you can get past the spray I just landed on you, you'll find something quite interesting.

In which year of medical school do students learn that their shit doesn't stink?

I only ask because a lot of the docs I had to deal with as a funeral director believed themselves to be on a higher moral plane too.

[Levin]

I think Mike has been threatened somehow by Church leaders based on his agitation on some pet issues (formal apology for racist past; etc.), and he's likening himself to Juanita. He's the revealor of truth; and he's being threatened or punished for it in some way.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't think it would be wrong to say that there are two kinds of people in the world: 1) Juanita Brooks, 2) the people that fought her. If you don't agree with me, well, I know what kind of person you are, in this paradigm.

Some wise person here like PAC or Archaea is going to say, "it's much more complicated than that."

No, it is not. It is not more complicated than that.

Your dichotomy sounds like it was crafted by W's speechwriters (you're either with us, or against us). Is this a Texan thing?

I'm an admirer of Juanita Brooks, but I'll simply go here with Robert Benchley who observed: "There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don't."

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Levin

I think Mike has been threatened somehow by Church leaders based on his agitation on some pet issues (formal apology for racist past; etc.), and he's likening himself to Juanita. He's the revealor of truth; and he's being threatened or punished for it in some way.

He dreams of being Juanita Brooks. I'd say Don Quixote fits much better.

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The title is actually kind of a lie.

That is, there have been no lessons from the Mountain Meadows Massacre for the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If pressed, a few people might be able to come up with one conclusion--don't do things that embarrass the church 100 years later.

It's frickin 2008, folks, and I am telling you there is a lesson or two in the MMM.

Who is trying to prevent members from gaining wisdom from the study of MMM? God or the Devil?

I'm probably the last person on the board to figure this out, but I think the connection you would like us to make is that the Church's position on the issue of homosexuality, including opposition to gay marriage, leads to deaths of gay people (by suicide) in a similar way that the Church's attitude toward gentile outsiders led to the slaughter in the MMM?

Seems like a stretch to me. To be sure, there is a tremendous burden of guilt that must go with being gay in Mormonism or any orthodox religious community. But as a Church we are more tolerant now than we have ever been. Granted there is a lot of room for improvement, but I think we will get better.

In any case, the Church will be better off if people like you remain an influence for tolerance and love from within the Church rather than leaving or getting yourself kicked out because you were ahead of your time. Have the same tolerance for other LDS members with different opinions about homosexuality that you would for Muslims or orthodox Jewish people with different opinions from you. Change takes time.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The title is actually kind of a lie.

That is, there have been no lessons from the Mountain Meadows Massacre for the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If pressed, a few people might be able to come up with one conclusion--don't do things that embarrass the church 100 years later.

It's frickin 2008, folks, and I am telling you there is a lesson or two in the MMM.

Who is trying to prevent members from gaining wisdom from the study of MMM? God or the Devil?

....

One thing about the world, is that events repeat themselves. The same lesson is repeated years later when Juanita Brooks is threatened by an apostle with excommunication if she reveals that John D. Lee has had his membership restored.

The only difference being that Juanita Brooks did what was right, and the murderers involved in the MMM did not.

How ironic however, that a representative conflict emerged from MMM.

.....

I don't think it would be wrong to say that there are two kinds of people in the world: 1) Juanita Brooks, 2) the people that fought her. If you don't agree with me, well, I know what kind of person you are, in this paradigm.

.....

Some wise person here like PAC or Archaea is going to say, "it's much more complicated than that."

No, it is not. It is not more complicated than that.

Post like this make it very difficult to take you seriously. Ever.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Post like this make it very difficult to take you seriously. Ever.

You are Person #1 on the list of people who doesn't get it. Congenitally, you do not get it. So that's why I give you a pass. You were born without the gift.

[MikeWaters]

Imagine if a religious group went onto a commercial airplane and slaughtered every single person on the plane, save a few children.

Do you think it would be a big deal?

Do you think that the religous group that did it, could claim that religion didn't have anything to do with it, or that it wasn't really a big deal, or that it was partially justified, or that it really ought not be discussed anymore?

As someone who grew up in the church, it is really, really hard to wrap my mind around MMM. Not only the murders, but the coverup of the murders, the sustaining of the people that did it, years after the fact, the framing of just one man, sending him to the slaughter so that the others would be unpunished.

And really here is the scary part: there is no institutional guilt. Think about the price paid by many individuals to make that happen. Think about the magnitude of that kind of lying. And the damage it must do to ones soul.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The title is actually kind of a lie.

That is, there have been no lessons from the Mountain Meadows Massacre for the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If pressed, a few people might be able to come up with one conclusion--don't do things that embarrass the church 100 years later.

It's frickin 2008, folks, and I am telling you there is a lesson or two in the MMM.

Who is trying to prevent members from gaining wisdom from the study of MMM? God or the Devil?

....

One thing about the world, is that events repeat themselves. The same lesson is repeated years later when Juanita Brooks is threatened by an apostle with excommunication if she reveals that John D. Lee has had his membership restored.

The only difference being that Juanita Brooks did what was right, and the murderers involved in the MMM did not.

How ironic however, that a representative conflict emerged from MMM.

.....

I don't think it would be wrong to say that there are two kinds of people in the world: 1) Juanita Brooks, 2) the people that fought her. If you don't agree with me, well, I know what kind of person you are, in this paradigm.

.....

Some wise person here like PAC or Archaea is going to say, "it's much more complicated than that."

No, it is not. It is not more complicated than that.

I respect Juanita Brooks. There are many lessons to be learned from the MMM.