Something that saddens me about many active members of the Chuch - Page 16 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Solon · 04-14-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaz

The thread has probably moved on from this, as I haven't had time to check it out since I left work on Friday. However, here's my response to this...

I apologize for putting 'words on your keyboard' - I misunderstood to which part of SU's argument you agreed.

I agree that putting one's own values or beliefs on God, and holding him accountable to those values, is the height of arrogance. Which is why I will never agree with SU's (or anyone else's) misleading use of the human suffering card as a proof of the non-existence of God as the common LDS thinks of Him.

I disagree with the idea that God is not 'knowable', so far as we are capable of understanding him. And yes, I believe that God does indeed love us, as that is where my experiences and observations lead me to believe.

Lastly, I agree that the nature of God as I understand him may not be all-encompassing nor adequately describe the ACTUAL nature of God. However, the 'larger picture', as such, does not make the 'lesser picture' any less true, accurate, or worthwhile.

These are some good points and I'll have to give them some thought. Thanks for taking the time to type them up (sincerely).

Spaz · 04-14-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Said the Pharisee to Christ as he tossed tables and welded the whip clearing the temple during his final week.

Listen, FMCoug's life is a life of conspicuous consumption and ease. It is ridiculous for him to sit where he sits and say God is actively engaged in all people's lives. I pointed it out starkly.

You say my bluntness is a reflection of false piety. You are just looking to justify your own biases.

Can I just point out the fact that a person can be all the things Adam claims FM to be, and yet God can, indeed, take an 'active role' in his life? Some things, without limiting Him to anything, that God can do to be 'engaged in his life', while not eschewing his responsibility to His plan for His children:

-Give promptings to help FM avoid disastrous incidents (I've heard FAR too many testimonies of people feeling the spirit to do this or that, and were saved from this or that because they did it - such as my own father, on a road, with a deer standing in the middle of the road...)
-Heal FM from a minor (or major) illness.
-Give FM inspiration in his calling, allowing him to help another of His 'children' to come closer to Him.
-Prompt FM to give one of his 'deficit-bought' hams to a neighbor in desperate need, thus blessing the lives of both parties.
-Prompt FM to share the gospel with a neighbor, again DIRECTLY influencing that person's life.

The fact is, there are FAR too many instances where God has influenced the lives of man for the better to discount His tendency to do so. So yes, it's sad, to me, that so many believe that He won't offer this support to them personally.

Spaz · 04-14-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solon

These are some good points and I'll have to give them some thought. Thanks for taking the time to type them up (sincerely).

You're welcome. And I, too, appreciate your thoughts on the matter. It's nice to be able to disagree on something, argue your points, and come away with a deeper understanding or conviction, all while being respectful.

Indy Coug · 04-14-2008, 05:51 PM

Since this thread has gotten serious again, I'll repost my earlier comments, since they seem to be similar to Spaz's comments above.

Why does the belief that God is actively involved in our lives seem to equate to "Divine Intervention" for some? Is it really that intellectually inconsistent to acknowledge that God is active in our lives, but only rarely intervenes?

Based on my personal experience, God doesn't intervene in often in my life (at least as far as my limited perspective allows me to determine), but he does help me navigate the murky waters; sometimes to do no more than help me make the best of a bad situation. Since I seek His guidance on a regular basis, that results in a pretty active God standing by to help me out.

The overriding principle governing our mortal existence is individual agency. Individual agency is what lands most of us into trouble; whether it be through our own personal agency or we suffer as the result of the cumulative effect of the agency of others.

An active God didn't keep Joseph Smith from losing several children, being falsely imprisoned several times or from losing his life, but during all that time, an active God continued to reveal to him the Restored Gospel.

MikeWaters · 04-14-2008, 05:53 PM

Clearly God doesn't answer all righteous prayers. We have too many examples of depravity that lead us to this conclusion.

I can relate to both the feeling that God has answered my prayers as well as feeling like at times God hasn't answered my prayers, that felt like worthy requests.

Spaz · 04-14-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

How many of those 15 stayed at your house when both you and your family weren't home? I can envision an unlikely circumstance where I would extend an offer to a complete stranger to stay at my vacant house (we don't have much in the way of valuable property anyway), but I could never envision a scenario where I would accept such an offer to stay at a vacant home of a complete stranger.

NE Indy is a pretty nice place. Wooded, lakes, rivers, streams, low crime, very family-oriented, etc.

Besides, it's a great location to branch out and be able to quickly drive to Chicago, St. Louis, Louisville, Cinci, Nashville in less than 4 hours.

FWIW, I'm headed to Indy in May. I'm rather looking forward to it. We're going to spend a few days in Nauvoo, the place I gained my first witness of the truth of the restored Gospel. I can't wait.

Just in case this is misunderstood, I already have all lodging arrangements worked out, so I'm not asking to stay with you. That would be really weird...

Indy Coug · 04-14-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaz

FWIW, I'm headed to Indy in May. I'm rather looking forward to it. We're going to spend a few days in Nauvoo, the place I gained my first witness of the truth of the restored Gospel. I can't wait.

Just in case this is misunderstood, I already have all lodging arrangements worked out, so I'm not asking to stay with you. That would be really weird...

No worries, I moved away from Indy in 2004.

Spaz · 04-14-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Clearly God doesn't answer all righteous prayers. We have too many examples of depravity that lead us to this conclusion.

I can relate to both the feeling that God has answered my prayers as well as feeling like at times God hasn't answered my prayers, that felt like worthy requests.

I agree with this post.

The fact that God answers some prayers, and 'intervenes' in some people's lives at certain times, doesn't mean he does so for everyone nor at all times. And no, that doesn't make God inconsistent.

SoCalCoug · 04-14-2008, 06:16 PM

I think that lost in the arguments over whether God is intimately involved in individual LDS members' lives is the ramifications of that, if it is true.

Assuming (I'm not passing judgment on this at all - I'm saying let's assume that's the case) that God heals faithful LDS members, helps them to avoid disaster, and gives them temporal blessings, all the while allowing children in third world countries to suffer and die. What are the ramifications for those for whom God has intervened?

If you believe that God preserves you, while allowing others to suffer, is that not a very weighty responsibility? "Where much is given, much is expected." Do you think that God chose to offer blessings to you, while not giving those same blessings to others, only because you asked? I think that's the more important question here.

"By their fruits shall ye know them." I think if you look at how LDS people actually behave, it is likely that far fewer truly believe that God is intimately involved in their lives, giving them blessings not given to others, simply by virtue of their being LDS and asking for them.

There are many truly charitable and righteous LDS members. However, I think most (and I include myself in this) fall far short.

I think the real significant question is not whether God is intimately involved in LDS members' lives, but why? And what is expected?

Sorry for the rambling, but these are just some of my thoughts on the issue.

Tex · 04-14-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaz

I agree with this post.

The fact that God answers some prayers, and 'intervenes' in some people's lives at certain times, doesn't mean he does so for everyone nor at all times. And no, that doesn't make God inconsistent.

Two questions

1. Does a prayer only count as "answered" if done to our satisfaction?
2. Must an answered prayer by definition always result in direct divine intervention?

04-14-2008, 06:16 PM	#159
SoCalCoug Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 3,059	I think that lost in the arguments over whether God is intimately involved in individual LDS members' lives is the ramifications of that, if it is true. Assuming (I'm not passing judgment on this at all - I'm saying let's assume that's the case) that God heals faithful LDS members, helps them to avoid disaster, and gives them temporal blessings, all the while allowing children in third world countries to suffer and die. What are the ramifications for those for whom God has intervened? If you believe that God preserves you, while allowing others to suffer, is that not a very weighty responsibility? "Where much is given, much is expected." Do you think that God chose to offer blessings to you, while not giving those same blessings to others, only because you asked? I think that's the more important question here. "By their fruits shall ye know them." I think if you look at how LDS people actually behave, it is likely that far fewer truly believe that God is intimately involved in their lives, giving them blessings not given to others, simply by virtue of their being LDS and asking for them. There are many truly charitable and righteous LDS members. However, I think most (and I include myself in this) fall far short. I think the real significant question is not whether God is intimately involved in LDS members' lives, but why? And what is expected? Sorry for the rambling, but these are just some of my thoughts on the issue. __________________ Get your stinking paws off me, you damned, dirty Yewt! "Now perhaps as I spanked myself screaming out "Kozlowski, say it like you mean it bitch!" might have been out of line, but such was the mood." - Goatnapper "If you want to fatten a pig up to make the pig MORE delicious, you can feed it almost anything. Seriously. The pig is like the car on Back to the Future. You put in garbage, and out comes something magical!" - Cali Coug

04-14-2008, 05:51 PM	#154
Indy Coug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Between Iraq and a hard place Posts: 7,569	Since this thread has gotten serious again, I'll repost my earlier comments, since they seem to be similar to Spaz's comments above. Why does the belief that God is actively involved in our lives seem to equate to "Divine Intervention" for some? Is it really that intellectually inconsistent to acknowledge that God is active in our lives, but only rarely intervenes? Based on my personal experience, God doesn't intervene in often in my life (at least as far as my limited perspective allows me to determine), but he does help me navigate the murky waters; sometimes to do no more than help me make the best of a bad situation. Since I seek His guidance on a regular basis, that results in a pretty active God standing by to help me out. The overriding principle governing our mortal existence is individual agency. Individual agency is what lands most of us into trouble; whether it be through our own personal agency or we suffer as the result of the cumulative effect of the agency of others. An active God didn't keep Joseph Smith from losing several children, being falsely imprisoned several times or from losing his life, but during all that time, an active God continued to reveal to him the Restored Gospel.

04-14-2008, 05:53 PM	#155
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Clearly God doesn't answer all righteous prayers. We have too many examples of depravity that lead us to this conclusion. I can relate to both the feeling that God has answered my prayers as well as feeling like at times God hasn't answered my prayers, that felt like worthy requests.