Temple Recommend required to work at BYU

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

I had several U of U institute teachers who openly discussed issues that put the church in bad light. One of the funnest days I ever had at the U was when our institute teacher invited anyone to go to the salt lake cemetery where we went to several graves and stories were told about the people who were buried there. Trust me this wasn't rah rah stories but true ones like the super uptight brother of Hyrum Smith's wife. JS told him if he didnt go get drunk and loosen up a bit he would die within a month. He of course didnt get drunk and he died of a heart attack within a month (btw I am paraphrasing as this day was almost 6 years ago). I do remember the older people who came on the field trip and how they were so aghast at the stories...

And you don't think this could be taught at BYU. I doubt anyone on this board had a religion instructor at any level better than Stephen Robinson. BRM was his favorite whipping boy. He's where I got my "apostate" views on grace from. There are many mullah types in the religion department, perhaps most of them are, but even some of those will discuss the difficult stuff in class.

At any rate, trying to look down on your nose at BYU because your institute teacher was more progressive than BYU's prof's is certainly a precarious position. CES is not known for being progressive at any level or location.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Maybe from the inside it's perceived that way. From the outside, Bateman and Holland represent one thing and Oaks/Lee are in a completely different class. One problem I suppose is that Oaks/Lee caliber scholars and administrators don't grow on trees in LDS culture, but, then again, there was Michael Young and he wound up at Utah, not BYU.

I had no idea that there was even an outsiders viewpoint on the Oaks/Lee Holland/Bateman debate. This couldn't have anything to do with the previous occupations of Oaks/Lee? You don't do the argument any favors by claiming that Holland (Yale, M.A., Ph.D) is not of the same scholarly caliber of Oaks/Lee.

[All-American]

I've had Dr. Robinson, and agree that he was fantastic.

If I have ever had a religion teacher in whose clase I've had an equally great experience, it would be Dr. Thomas Wayment, who's relatively young (and therefore, I am led to assume, new to the game). Nevertheless, he wasn't afraid to take on many of the problematic issues of the New Testament. Marital status, questionable stories, things that didn't quite make sense-- he brought up a miriad of them.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

It boils down to one what wants. If one's perspective on University is a glorified trade school in which the supreme purpose is to learn a trade that one can apply to earning a living, BYU is an optimal place. In professional pursuits it is highly reputable, it is cheap and if one is LDS it is a good environment to find a suitable companion. Of course this precludes youngsters who grow up emotionally attached to Utah or USU and have been classically conditioned to dislike BYU, thus demonstrating their openmindedness.

However if one prefers the more traditional university experience BYU will not provide that to the extent of other universities. I think the U of U endeavors to be more of that traditional university, but I wonder how much the undergraduate student body could facilitate consistent competition. In comparing BYU to Utah there seems to be a trade off in traditional academic approach versus a capable student body, not that they are mutually exclusive just that as both have developed such is their individual crosses to bare.

I believe that BYU tends to personify the LDS culture that education is merely a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself. That does not particularly bother me as I tend to lean to that way of thinking to some extent, but I also reflect upon my college experience and wonder what I missed. I was never taught marxism by a genuine marxist. I was taught by a Rhodes Scholar right wing full bird COL whose entire explanation was that marxism results in everyone wearing size 8 shoe regardless of size. It was obviously a supply driven socio-economic system and thus flawed. I figure that a genuine Marxist could probably offer some arguments that claim that there are certain aspects in which Marxism is superior to a capitalistic Republic.

If you studied at the University of Chicago, you might also get your Marxism from a right winger.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by FarrahWaters

When I was there, I'm pretty sure the models got to be nude.

Not true.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Not true.

So it was false advertisement on your part while you moonlighted for a couple of extra bucks? Who would have thought the Puerto Rican Whizzanator along with a charming "yo, yo, yo ladies of the Helaman Halls 478th ward, Mister Mike is in da house!" would one day have such a bountiful harvest as your good wife.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by YOhio

I had no idea that there was even an outsiders viewpoint on the Oaks/Lee Holland/Bateman debate. This couldn't have anything to do with the previous occupations of Oaks/Lee? You don't do the argument any favors by claiming that Holland (Yale, M.A., Ph.D) is not of the same scholarly caliber of Oaks/Lee.

Well, there are a lot of Yale PhD's out there who can't get a tenure track job at a university like the University of Utah. They are legion. (I didn't say BYU because based on prior comments here it seems a PhD from Yale and a temple recommend could be the ticket at BYU.) I'm not overly impressed with PhD from Yale per se.

I will say this about Lee. In his profession he was at the absolute pinnacle. He was the Coach K of lawyers. He could have been dean at a top 5 law school no problem. He had Borkean credentials and could easily have been on the Supreme Court, and without the political hurdles Bork faced. He was solicitor general of the United States, which is next to being on the Supreme Court--he was the government's lawyer in Supreme Court cases. See Lincoln Caplan's book The Tenth Justice which focuses heavily on Lee's tenure as Reagan's solicitor general, his amazing record and his integrity. BTW, Caplan was a liberal writer for the New Yorker and now writes for Slate. Later, Lee was a superstar private practitioner taking a good share of the most important cases to the Supreme Court representing private interests. One year he was the first private lawyer in history to argue more cases to the Supreme Court than the solicitor general. Companies paid him hundreds of thousands of dollars just to put his name on their briefs. He graduated no. 1 from the U. of Chicago and clerked for the Supreme Court. This just scratches the surface of his achievements. Lee's untimely death was an unmitigated tragedy for BYU.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by jay santos

If you studied at the University of Chicago, you might also get your Marxism from a right winger.

But I wouldn't have called him Sir.

There are many conservative institutions of higher learning, as somebody who attended one I occasionally lament what I might have missed.

[SeattleUte]

By the way, to the extent BYU has any standing at all as a university, and it does, there are always outside perceptions.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by FarrahWaters

When I was there, I'm pretty sure the models got to be nude.

Though the art department, I'm sure, is one which is probably very different from other universities.

well not last semester.
based on the general caliber of lds art, i'm sure it's very different.