Why Jefe has punished many of us.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I am not a mod, and do not have mod privileges.

I was just kidding about the mod thing, and I actually think women should have the priesthood.

But I'm still struggling with how a male bishop could call someone else's wife to be first counselor. I think this would be a problem. Eventually, I think women will have the priesthood and perform ordinances, but leadership roles will remain separate.

Do you think Jefe would ban me for suggesting that women should have the priesthood?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by nikuman

I feel no moral obligation to obey a set of principles I had no hand in drafting or spiritual confirmation as to their truth in eternal settings.

Was this line meant seriously?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by nikuman

At the risk of offending many I consider friends here, and specifically for the benefit of BDB, let me interject with a few opinions that I personally have and surmise many here do as well:

1. Jefe's site has suffered greatly in terms of quality (apart from the utilitarian layout and poor coding). The football discussion over there is absolutely without substance and the other topics are ripe with fundamentalist thought.

2. Jefe has every right to his rules and his enforcement thereof as long as he pays the bills.

3. We have every right to obey the rules as we see fit until such time as said rules are incorporated into Mormon dogma (for some of us) or until the end of time (for the rest of eternity). I feel no moral obligation to obey a set of principles I had no hand in drafting or spiritual confirmation as to their truth in eternal settings. I am cognizant of the penalties that may result from disobediance and, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. For the record, I have had two one day suspensions in a year, I believe, and one longer one that I requested as part of a gag. I am, for the record, a theological mullah by many standards. BDB specifically should know of my spiritual beliefs to some extent and the reasons thereof, so let no man call me apostate.

4. I know nothing of Jefe's moderation motivations more than I guess. However, the results very clearly appear to be a censoring of certain viewpoints over others, resulting in a board of like-minded sheep, and very stupid sheep at that. I do not guess that Jefe has this intent, but I do not doubt those who draw such a conclusion - it certain fits the bill. At the very least, Jefe has shown himself to be a sloppy moderator on several instances involving me personally and his penchant for searching posts from hours earlier (some of which received warnings, no less) and then doling out suspensions indicates a deification complex. Having met him in real life, albeit briefly, I won't say that this is in fact the case but it would not shock me in the least given other similar people I know.

5. Several quality posters that do not frequent here are on the verge of being chased off. I have been told this directly by said posters. Multiple mods have expressed their personal dissatisfaction with him to me personally.

6. My own personal thought: I do not care for the changing oil discussion in the slightest, but I tolerate it because it is part and parcel of having a community in which we are free to voice our opinions. In truth, I don't agree with half the crap that goes on here, but I enjoy the free exchange and gain benefits from the conversation. I would enjoy this on a larger level and want CB to change. Unfortunately, the trend still appears to be uneven and heavy-handed enforcement of rules that are interpreted subjectively. We are largely throwing ourselves against a brick wall in order to foster change from the Draconian nonsense that goes on over there, to the extent we haven't decided to (or had it decided for us) abandon ship. Call it cyber civil disobedience if you will. I don't, but you are free to.

7. I would tell all of this to Jefe personally if I thought he stood a snowball's chance in hell of actually listening. Actually, I have no doubt that he's read this thread with interest and I actually have just told him. I have contemplated sending an email to him personally with the signatures of the 40 odd posters that I know of that feel the same way. Some of us are more vocal than others.

8. Bottom line: CB now represents everything I hated about BYU (i.e., appearance of mindless homogeneity). I want to change it, because I actually enjoy the place and have many friends there who do not participate over here.

Interesting.......who are these alleged quality posters you speak of?

[nikuman]

Originally Posted by Tex

Was this line meant seriously?

I named you not; you may return to your general discussion with other people.

[nikuman]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

Interesting.......who are these alleged quality posters you speak of?

I think the last one just signed up here.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by nikuman

At the risk of offending many I consider friends here, and specifically for the benefit of BDB, let me interject with a few opinions that I personally have and surmise many here do as well:

1. Jefe's site has suffered greatly in terms of quality (apart from the utilitarian layout and poor coding). The football discussion over there is absolutely without substance and the other topics are ripe with fundamentalist thought.

2. Jefe has every right to his rules and his enforcement thereof as long as he pays the bills.

3. We have every right to obey the rules as we see fit until such time as said rules are incorporated into Mormon dogma (for some of us) or until the end of time (for the rest of eternity). I feel no moral obligation to obey a set of principles I had no hand in drafting or spiritual confirmation as to their truth in eternal settings. I am cognizant of the penalties that may result from disobediance and, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. For the record, I have had two one day suspensions in a year, I believe, and one longer one that I requested as part of a gag. I am, for the record, a theological mullah by many standards. BDB specifically should know of my spiritual beliefs to some extent and the reasons thereof, so let no man call me apostate.

4. I know nothing of Jefe's moderation motivations more than I guess. However, the results very clearly appear to be a censoring of certain viewpoints over others, resulting in a board of like-minded sheep, and very stupid sheep at that. I do not guess that Jefe has this intent, but I do not doubt those who draw such a conclusion - it certain fits the bill. At the very least, Jefe has shown himself to be a sloppy moderator on several instances involving me personally and his penchant for searching posts from hours earlier (some of which received warnings, no less) and then doling out suspensions indicates a deification complex. Having met him in real life, albeit briefly, I won't say that this is in fact the case but it would not shock me in the least given other similar people I know.

5. Several quality posters that do not frequent here are on the verge of being chased off. I have been told this directly by said posters. Multiple mods have expressed their personal dissatisfaction with him to me personally.

6. My own personal thought: I do not care for the changing oil discussion in the slightest, but I tolerate it because it is part and parcel of having a community in which we are free to voice our opinions. In truth, I don't agree with half the crap that goes on here, but I enjoy the free exchange and gain benefits from the conversation. I would enjoy this on a larger level and want CB to change. Unfortunately, the trend still appears to be uneven and heavy-handed enforcement of rules that are interpreted subjectively. We are largely throwing ourselves against a brick wall in order to foster change from the Draconian nonsense that goes on over there, to the extent we haven't decided to (or had it decided for us) abandon ship. Call it cyber civil disobedience if you will. I don't, but you are free to.

7. I would tell all of this to Jefe personally if I thought he stood a snowball's chance in hell of actually listening. Actually, I have no doubt that he's read this thread with interest and I actually have just told him. I have contemplated sending an email to him personally with the signatures of the 40 odd posters that I know of that feel the same way. Some of us are more vocal than others.

8. Bottom line: CB now represents everything I hated about BYU (i.e., appearance of mindless homogeneity). I want to change it, because I actually enjoy the place and have many friends there who do not participate over here.

A rules dominated culture can become very difficult to control without chasing off the out the box thinking or acting. No offense to any of you others or me, but the loss of napper over there was a huge mistake. There is a constituency that will cry loud and often in secret. That constituency tends to get listened to because they are a pain in the butt and one begins to wonder if they represent the majority, they don't.

A lot of people think the scandals had a lot of people upset. Most were upset it was hurting the football team, not BYU's image.

That said, I don't know what I would do if I were Jefe. To let that board be as free willing as this board I don't think would work.

[nikuman]

Originally Posted by BYU71

A rules dominated culture can become very difficult to control. There is a constituency that will cry loud and often in secret. That constituency tends to get listened to because they are a pain in the butt and one begins to wonder if they represent the majority, they don't.

A lot of people think the scandals had a lot of people upset. Most were upset it was hurting the football team, not BYU's image.

That said, I don't know what I would do if I were Jefe. To let that board be as free willing as this board I don't think would work.

No, you're completely right. That board can't be as free as this one is. However, the appearance of favoritism and subjectivity should go, I would suggest.

I know (or at least have been told) that Jefe is concerned about how things on CB reflect on the program and the church. I wonder which is worse: appearing to actively question and debate certain elements of that faith (within reason, of course) or appearing to be a bunch of uneducated rubes from a cultish sect who are filled with intolerance and also happen to be political fundamentalists. Right now, it sure looks like the latter.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by BYU71

Sorry, I have mixed two threads together. I was referencing a thread talking about church leaders teaching kids about sex. I can easily see you as a church leader, that is a compliment, however, I wouldn't want you or others as conservative on the subject as you teaching my kids about sex.

I don't think you should be in the "changing oil" conversation either. Instead of reprimanding us though, you should have just gone somewhere else.

Since I do not participate in any sex discussions on either board I'm not sure how you would know what my views on the matter are.

You seem like a reasonable kind of guy. I figured that rather than having to abandon chat everytime you come in I could call your attention to the fact that your selected topic of conversation was bothering me. I hoped that you would be able to see why and be a little more considerate in the future.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Since I do not participate in any sex discussions on either board I'm not sure how you would know what my views on the matter are.

You seem like a reasonable kind of guy. I figured that rather than having to abandon chat everytime you come in I could call your attention to the fact that your selected topic of conversation was bothering me. I hoped that you would be able to see why and be a little more considerate in the future.

This happened a few years ago in chat. There have been times when I entered chat and you young folks were talking about dating and really silly things like that. I didn't ask you all to quit being so silly, I just left.

You will just have to realize some places the boys are hanging out and they may not want you around.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by nikuman

I named you not; you may return to your general discussion with other people.

I didn't feel named. I was just curious if you were serious about a spiritual confirmation of board rules.