Modern day apostacy - how would we know?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

???

That was a stab at humor. All I meant is that my remarks may not have been intended for you.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Maybe to move this forward I will take a shot at what I think a miracle is. This is my first effort so I'm open to critical suggestions.

To me there are lots of things that happen every day that are extremely unlikely to have occurred. And, of course, anything can seem amazing with the benefit of hindsight. A few examples to illustrate.

A car accident occurs and everyone is killed by one person who is thrown from the vehicle and only sustains minor injuries. These amazing scenarios, over time, are fairly common and don't seem at all particularized to members of the church. So to me, these kind of miracles don't give us any objective evidence of whether heavenly power is being exercised in our church, though the spirit may tell us.

Brother Smith is very sick and receives a priesthood blessing. The next day, against the expectations of his doctors, he is better. This is also, over time, a fairly common occurrence both inside and outside the church. More over, anecdotal experience tells me that for every person who is healed there are a dozen just as faithful who receive the blessing and die anyway. So to me, these kind of miracles don't give us any objective evidence of whether heavenly power is being exercised in our church, though the spirit may tell us.

So I guess what that leaves me with is someone with priesthood authority calling on God to change an outcome or do something that would defy rational explanation and it happening. These are the kinds of signs and wonders I guess I have in mind when I think of miracles, the kind that accompanied Joseph, the kind he taught people we evidence of the restoration. So, lets hear some criticism of this definition.

I agree, nearly any "miracle" as such can be explained away as a not-so-uncommon occurrence. And as you say, the spirit can witness to you whether the event was wrought by the power of God or whether it was natural.

Obviously, there are several miracles performed in the bible which are FAR less common - the vial of oil that never emptied, water to wine, raising of Lazarus, etc. Yet, they are amazingly uncommon when compared to the others. People were cured of leprosy all the time, so what makes Christ's healings miracles?

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Also Spaz, you said before that it was your understanding that you were not to share the miraculous with others. I'm just curious what your authority for that is. I have heard it before and wonder if there is something specific you are relying on.

I don't have anything specific. My memory for details is not exemplary. I was taught it in a lesson, and seem to recall it was around my missionary service time. I'm sure it used the "pearls before swine" scripture. I remember the lesson touched me spiritually, so I decided to take it to heart.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

So I guess what that leaves me with is someone with priesthood authority calling on God to change an outcome or do something that would defy rational explanation and it happening. These are the kinds of signs and wonders I guess I have in mind when I think of miracles, the kind that accompanied Joseph, the kind he taught people we evidence of the restoration. So, lets hear some criticism of this definition.

I.e., you want miracles that can be independently verified and scientifically proven (statistically significant). Good luck with that.

Given that part of our mission on earth (as taught by JS) is to learn to walk by faith, do you think it is likely that God would provide an indisputable "smoking gun", such that even the Chris Hitchens of the world would fall in line?

And I would like to see a list of those indisputable miracles done by JS.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I don't know what he has in his head. I just think it is an interesting thought experiment. Clearly, the answer to the question for you is that you would be told.




No, but I think it is interesting to ask whether it would have to be the case that the church leadership would see a BOM cycle coming. I see nothing wrong with your assumption that it would but since they are not infallible and have been deceived before one wonders whether it is possible. I think it is possible albeit unlikely.

There's something humbling (and perhaps oddly empowering) by saying, "Lord, is it I?" The thought experiment is fine as far as it goes; perhaps Adam is simply an imperfect vessel. When he punctuates his points with cheapshots at Monson, it doesn't make me feel inclined to take his approach seriously.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Don't cast your pearls before swine?

Then here is the thought experiment, Jeff. If a truly miraculous exercise of priesthood authority or some other truly miraculous manifestation happened to you, what would your default setting be? To tell people unless instructed not to, or not to tell people unless instructed otherwise.

As I read the scriptures I see people proclaiming these things with boldness so I would default to sharing. But maybe there is some authority to the contrary that I have overlooked. That is why I ask the question. And unless you think everyone in your ward is swine, I would have to think you would tell somebody too. Am I wrong?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Then here is the thought experiment, Jeff. If a truly miraculous exercise of priesthood authority or some other truly miraculous manifestation happened to you, what would your default setting be? To tell people unless instructed not to, or not to tell people unless instructed otherwise.

As I read the scriptures I see people proclaiming these things with boldness so I would default to sharing. But maybe there is some authority to the contrary that I have overlooked. That is why I ask the question. And unless you think everyone in your ward is swine, I would have to think you would tell somebody too. Am I wrong?

Good question. I would share the experience when I felt moved to do so. But I have a tough time picturing myself ever sharing such an experience on an internet message board. Maybe that's just me.

[Spaz]

I have no problem sharing miracles I've heard others relate to me. These are of the not-so-easy-to-duplicate variety.

Second-hand experience related to me recently, where the teller heard it from the person who experienced it personally:

-Woman is in the temple, and suddenly feels the urgent need to go home immediately. She stands up to leave mid-session. The Temple President sees her leaving, asks what's up, and his response to her is "If you complete your temple session, whatever it is that is the problem will be OK until you are through with the session." After which, she returns home to find her son had fell into the pool, and was 'pulled out' by a woman wearing white who's name was Mary - the same Mary who's proxy work she was doing at the temple.


This one may not necessarily be a 'miracle', but is a first-hand account told to me by the person who performed the miracle.

-Missionaries are going door-to-door, in the 80's, in Southern Cal. At one house, they enter the gate, and ring the bell. Immediately, they are set upon by several large dogs, who come pealing around the house. They don't have time to run away. One elder raises his arm to the square and rebukes the dogs, who immediately retreat.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Spaz

Second-hand experience related to me recently, where the teller heard it from the person who experienced it personally:

-Woman is in the temple, and suddenly feels the urgent need to go home immediately. She stands up to leave mid-session. The Temple President sees her leaving, asks what's up, and his response to her is "If you complete your temple session, whatever it is that is the problem will be OK until you are through with the session." After which, she returns home to find her son had fell into the pool, and was 'pulled out' by a woman wearing white who's name was Mary - the same Mary who's proxy work she was doing at the temple.

You need to check your source. I have heard that one lots of times. LDS urban legend.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Then here is the thought experiment, Jeff. If a truly miraculous exercise of priesthood authority or some other truly miraculous manifestation happened to you, what would your default setting be? To tell people unless instructed not to, or not to tell people unless instructed otherwise.

As I read the scriptures I see people proclaiming these things with boldness so I would default to sharing. But maybe there is some authority to the contrary that I have overlooked. That is why I ask the question. And unless you think everyone in your ward is swine, I would have to think you would tell somebody too. Am I wrong?

I default to not share unless prompted. Keep in mind, that my default for promptings is that if I want to do something, and I'm not directed not to, I consider that authorization to do so.

In other words, in a church setting, I would consider sharing a personal experience, and unless the spirit told me not to do so I would. On the other hand, in a forum like this, I would not want to share the experience, and therefore would not do so until prompted.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Then here is the thought experiment, Jeff. If a truly miraculous exercise of priesthood authority or some other truly miraculous manifestation happened to you, what would your default setting be? To tell people unless instructed not to, or not to tell people unless instructed otherwise.

As I read the scriptures I see people proclaiming these things with boldness so I would default to sharing. But maybe there is some authority to the contrary that I have overlooked. That is why I ask the question. And unless you think everyone in your ward is swine, I would have to think you would tell somebody too. Am I wrong?

As effective as quoting Packer typically is on CG, here you go:

I have come to believe also that it is not wise to continually talk of unusual spiritual experiences. They are to be guarded with care and shared only when the Spirit itself prompts you to use them to the blessing of others. I am ever mindful of Alma’s words:

“It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.” (Alma 12:9.)

I heard President Marion G. Romney once counsel mission presidents and their wives in Geneva, “I do not tell all I know; I have never told my wife all I know, for I found out that if I talked too lightly of sacred things, thereafter the Lord would not trust me.”

We are, I believe, to keep these things and ponder them in our hearts, as Luke said Mary did of the supernal events that surrounded the birth of Jesus. (See Luke 2:19.)

From his "Candle of the Lord" talk. Pretty famous talk, actually.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vg...____&hideNav=1