Temple Recommend required to work at BYU

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

It boils down to one what wants. If one's perspective on University is a glorified trade school in which the supreme purpose is to learn a trade that one can apply to earning a living, BYU is an optimal place. In professional pursuits it is highly reputable, it is cheap and if one is LDS it is a good environment to find a suitable companion. Of course this precludes youngsters who grow up emotionally attached to Utah or USU and have been classically conditioned to dislike BYU, thus demonstrating their openmindedness.

However if one prefers the more traditional university experience BYU will not provide that to the extent of other universities. I think the U of U endeavors to be more of that traditional university, but I wonder how much the undergraduate student body could facilitate consistent competition. In comparing BYU to Utah there seems to be a trade off in traditional academic approach versus a capable student body, not that they are mutually exclusive just that as both have developed such is their individual crosses to bare.

I believe that BYU tends to personify the LDS culture that education is merely a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself. That does not particularly bother me as I tend to lean to that way of thinking to some extent, but I also reflect upon my college experience and wonder what I missed. I was never taught marxism by a genuine marxist. I was taught by a Rhodes Scholar right wing full bird COL whose entire explanation was that marxism results in everyone wearing size 8 shoe regardless of size. It was obviously a supply driven socio-economic system and thus flawed. I figure that a genuine Marxist could probably offer some arguments that claim that there are certain aspects in which Marxism is superior to a capitalistic Republic.

Way to rub it in our faces that you went to one of the hardest schools to get in.

Interesting that you and I were so close geographically, yet so far apart in the thinking of our respective schools. I was mocked, belittled and treated with heavy doses of disdain - and it wasn't until my senior year that I figured out that it wasn't because I was a dumb jock, but - *gasp* - a conservative.

Oh that I could have laced 'em up to play on Doubleday Field. I like my kind of narrow-mindedness, ya know?

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Way to rub it in our faces that you went to one of the hardest schools to get in.

Interesting that you and I were so close geographically, yet so far apart in the thinking of our respective schools. I was mocked, belittled and treated with heavy doses of disdain - and it wasn't until my senior year that I figured out that it wasn't because I was a dumb jock, but - *gasp* - a conservative.

Oh that I could have laced 'em up to play on Doubleday Field. I like my kind of narrow-mindedness, ya know?

Did you know that the best baseball player for Army that past few years have been some kid from SLC named Scoggins, or something like that.

I think he was a shortstop.

Here is the link
<http://www.goarmysports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=48132&SPID=4603&DB_OEM_ID=1 1100&ATCLID=536476&Q_SEASON=2006>

Ever heard of the kid?

[YOhio]

A couple of years ago a Professor at BYU named Michael Whiting gave a Tuesday forum speech entitled, "Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life: Some Assembly Required." This discussion provided a thoughtful viewpoint on Darwinism and evolution that is difficult to find at another school. It's well worth watching, either online or it is replayed on BYUTV from time to time.

http://byubwmv.byu.edu/byudevo/2005/devo05242005.wmv

I believe this is the type of thing Jeff Lebowski was referring to when he said that evolution is unapologetically taught at BYU.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

As to your first point, I know several people who have had different experiences.

As to your second, I could be wrong. What I do know is that Dallin Oaks was a huge proponent of Prof. Jensen (who, as you correctly noted, was one of the most prominent paleantologists in the world). Oaks was frustrated that the church would not do anything to put the bones on exhibit. He wrote a letter to the Board of Trustees in 1972 (as President of the university) asking for guidance on what to do with the bones. He noted in his letter that "Jensen points out . . . that the bones are there and cannot really be ignored by a major university that is almost literally sitting on top of them. . . . The interpretation of fossils should not go by default to those who are aggressively atheistic in their conclusions. Students in elementary and secondary schools in this state and throughout the country are being subjected to teachings which do not make dinosaurs compatible with the revealed word of God." (Bergera and Priddis, Brigham Young University: A House of Faith, 1985, p. 163.) The fossils were never found a home at BYU and remained under the bleachers for another 30 years.

You can say they didn't have a home and that was the reason they were stored under the bleachers, but it ignores the obvious question of why they didn't have a home at BYU. Funding? Why couldn't BYU get funding to build a world class museum? It would have paid for itself many times over (as Thanksgiving Point is now demonstrating). The answer may be one you aren't prepared to accept. As BYU religion professor Reid Bankhead noted, "Evolution is of the devil; those who work with it are, conscientious or otherwise, engaged in the devil's work." (BYU religion professor Reid Bankhead; cited in Bergera and Priddis, Brigham Young University: A House of Faith, 1985, p. 161.)

Or, as Elder Ezra Taft Benson noted, "organic evolutionary views . . . are taught and believed by many professors . . . and numerous students at the BYU. . . . the stench of apostasy is permeating many departments on campus." Elder Benson forwarded the letter to Gordon B. Hinckley, adding a cover note, "The problem seems to be increasing, not diminishing. Some of the latest complaints which have come to me have been from individual students." (Bergera and Priddis, Brigham Young University: A House of Faith, 1985, p.167.)

Are you kidding me? A few quotes from a book published in 1985? Including the obligatory ETB quote? aaronshaf would be proud.

The fact that BYU has not chosen to expend the resources to build a dinosaur museum is not in any way conclusive proof that BYU is uneasy about paleontology. Honestly, counselor. Are we to conclude that BYU has doctrinal issues with modern medicine because it hasn't built a medical school?

In spite of anectdotal stories, anyone who thinks BYU routinely and systematically curtails discussions of evolution is simply wrong.

[Detroitdad]

I shared the concerns expressed here about academic freedom, intellectual climate, and patriarchy before I went to BYU. I did not even intend on applying there (or anywhere else for that matter, because I thought I was going to be a rock star) and most definitely did not think in a million years that I would attend. But two days before applications were due my dad was called as a mission president, and my dad told me I was applying because I could get free tuition. Furthermore, my parents were also moving to Africa, so I could go to college get the band going and not have to worry about paying for an apartment, etc, since they would pay for the dorms. So I applied and got in.

It took about 2 months for me to figure out that my concerns were legitimate but overblown. BYU was and is a place where real life mullahs walked the campus, eager to condemn. It was a place where dissent can sometimes be stifled. It was a place that seemed to delight in draconian, useless rules. But it was also a place where I witnessed people openly disagreeing with those rules (including faculty). I was also assigned literature that had non-LDS themes and recieved no rebuke for writing questioning papers or comments. Frankly I was shocked at how vibrant and intellectually open an institution it was.

I believe that BYU goes through phases depending upon what group holds sway within its bureaucratic structure. Sometimes, IMHO certain persons seek to impress by going beyond what is reasonable, to exceed the desired outcome (I am thinking in terms of the "flair" scene in Office Space, here). Such persons disappoint me, and they so more damage than good to the reputation of the institution. It is just as much the institution of the people who think it might be alright to have long hair and beards, as it is the mullahs who currently make the rules. I see it as a responsibility for the concerned alumni to make clear their objects to the archaic rules that prevent BYU from being all that it can be and dragging it into the mud of authoritarianism. The Rodin incident is a perfect example of an embarassment to everyone associated with BYU orchestrated for nothing.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

In spite of anectdotal stories, anyone who thinks BYU routinely and systematically curtails discussions of evolution is simply wrong.

You didn't get the memo. Third hand anecdotal evidence is substantial evidence demonstrating the lack of academic freedom at BYU. Of course first hand observations should be ignored if used to express a contrary opinion.

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by YOhio

You didn't get the memo. Third hand anecdotal evidence is substantial evidence demonstrating the lack of academic freedom at BYU. Of course first hand observations should be ignored if used to express a contrary opinion.

I can use this post as evidence of that in an academic citation, correct?

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by Detroitdad

I can use this post as evidence of that in an academic citation, correct?

Rule 18 of the 18th Edition of The Bluebook.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Solon

That's a good example. I was pretty bent that I couldn't go to Provo and see The Kiss. [I sent Merrill Bateman a postcard of the statue from Paris in 1999.] Also, I've taught books in classes that might be problematic due to their explicit language and homosexual themes, but since I don't teach at BYU, I can't say definitively that I would get in trouble (e.g. Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison; Plato's Symposium - good books and important for literary/historical studies). But hey, it's their school. They do what they want. BYU students do miss out on some experiences that are common at other colleges.

As I said (somewhere) above, it just gets a little difficult to sort out the feelings because of BYU's ties to my religious faith. I know that BYU and the church are not identical, but the overlap makes for some funky personal identity issues.

Or my sister in law who is an art major. Figure drawing classes are done with people wearing leotards.
which i guess makes it a leotard drawing class.

[FarrahWaters]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Can science professors explore evolution? The fact that BYU had the largest collection of dinosaur bones in the world stored under the seats at LES (until they gave them away because they didn't know how to acknowledge the existence of dinosaurs) would indicate some issues in that area.

I'm coming into this late too. FWIW, some of my experiences...

My bio professor absolutely taught evolution. Dr. Bradford. But my religion teacher presented evolution as a false doctrine. I challenged him on it, and he admitted it was just his opinion.

I had some great classes that encouraged open-minded thinking. The Bennions teaching Hon History of Civ, for one.

The Rodin fiasco was definitely an embarrassment. I'm laughing about Solon sending Bateman a postcard.