Top Ten Most Offensive Statements By LDS Church Leaders

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Because the people who might believe God was behind the ban had perfectly good reasons beyond racism.

Just because mortals like prophets and rank and file members engaged in incorrect, baseless racist theories to explain the ban doesn't mean that God's motivation was borne of ancient grudges, bizarre dislike of a distinct subset of his own spiritual offspring or whatever.

This argument might hold water if we actually had a written revelation to which we could refer. As it is, the ban was started by BY and he exclusively employed "incorrect, baseless racist theories" to explain the ban. I have never seen solid evidence that BY ever received any kind of revelation.

[woot]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

that would work if all you were doing is science. when we're talking about God that's irrelevant.

Not so. Science isn't able to speak about God directly (it can sure constantly disprove the absurd claims of his believers, though), but scientists sure can.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

This argument might hold water if we actually had a written revelation to which we could refer. As it is, the ban was started by BY and he exclusively employed "incorrect, baseless racist theories" to explain the ban. I have never seen solid evidence that BY ever received any kind of revelation.

The absence of proof is not proof. If you want to play oddsmaker, fine, but you can't absolutely exclude other possibilities.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by woot

Not so. Science isn't able to speak about God directly (it can sure constantly disprove the absurd claims of his believers, though), but scientists sure can.

first, most scientists believe in God. second, you make absolutely no sense.

[woot]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

first, most scientists believe in God. second, you make absolutely no sense.

I recognize that and find it irrelevant. You might be interested to know, however, that the vast majority of elite scientists (>90%), as judged by inclusion in the National Academy of Sciences, do not believe in God. Even among scientists in general, the rate of belief is much lower than in the general population.

If there's anything you didn't understand, allow me to expound. I do, however, make sense.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Just because we fail to understand why God operates in what appears to be a prejudiced or inequitable fashion doesn't mean he fits that description. That's very small-minded.

Indy, I see it this way.

It is small-minded of us to see the poor among us and the wealthy among us like Seattle Ute, and to believe God is a respecter of persons because not all are equal. However, it is not unnatural to believe that men who grew up in a racially biased era, who may have failed to inquire of God and who gave racially insensitive justifications for a policy for which no revelation can be found, did so not out of God's will, but due to their own fallible heritage. In fact, the evidence appears to be overwhelming.

Thus, while we cannot expect God to behave as we wish, i.e., everybody with free health care Ferraris, but we can often expect fallible men to resort to their failings and to blame God for it.

In this instance, the ban, instituted without revelation, and justified through racist means, appears to have been a manmade decision, not divine.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by woot

I recognize that and find it irrelevant. You might be interested to know, however, that the vast majority of elite scientists (>90%), as judged by inclusion in the National Academy of Sciences, do not believe in God. Even among scientists in general, the rate of belief is much lower than in the general population.

If there's anything you didn't understand, allow me to expound. I do, however, make sense.

"Elite" scientists? IOW, only the substandard scientists cling to the notion of Deity, while the competent ones have successfully discarded that stupid concept?

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by woot

I recognize that and find it irrelevant.

that's been my point all along.

[woot]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

"Elite" scientists? IOW, only the substandard scientists cling to the notion of Deity, while the competent ones have successfully discarded that stupid concept?

"Elite" and "Competent" are not synonyms. But yes, it is a fact that there is a negative correlation between success in research and god belief. This does not mean that one can't be a successful scientist and religious; there are many examples of this. It just means that it tends not to be the case.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

The absence of proof is not proof. If you want to play oddsmaker, fine, but you can't absolutely exclude other possibilities.

That's an interesting comment from an actuary.

Yes, I am following what I consider to be the preponderance of evidence. The odds of a divine origin are quite small, IMO. Right around zero.