Who's right most of the time?

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Brian

There is a big difference between doing something you don't understand because someone told you to do it and doing something you don't understand, but prayed about it, studied it out, struggled (like Nephi did) and felt a spiritual direction to do it, and then did it.

The former creates robots.
The later creates transformed individuals, which is what God wants.
If all that was required was obedience, satan's plan would have been ideal. Changed people is the goal, so we have the other plan.

Satan's plan was not about obedience, obedience connotes having a choice and choosing the right decision. You are smart enough to know the difference. One can be blindly disobedient every bit as much blindly obedient.

Perhaps it is all semantics but I think we agree. I have never advocated that man does not have a responsibility to work out on their own, I just strongly believe that at some point in time we are all going to have to make decisions when we know it is the will of God but we don't know why.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Because he was uncomfortable with it.

Even Christ asked for some relief from the pains of the Atonement. Certainly when acts are extremely difficult and or painful as well as appear to oppose our cultural norms, one must ensure it is certainly the right thing to do. In the end the example is totally giving one's will to God.

Is the train of thought you are proposing that Nephi's hesitancy should be an example?

There should be a spiritual connection before we act. Nephi paused to make sure he was getting that connection, and then he did a very difficult thing.

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Because I am more prone to think his hesitating was more a function of balancing the nature of the task with ensuring the instructions came from God.

I don't see a difference, it's still a spiritual connection.

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

When Lehi told him he could go back to Jerusalem to get the plates the record makes no indication he hesitated.

It doesn't comment either way. No way to know. Perhaps he had previously studied the issue out and had already had that connection. I don't know. Nobody knows.

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Further, when Lehi told him to go back and get the womenfolk so he could get laid and propagate the species he was on the camel before he even took time to pray about it.

Well who wouldn't? Nephi was a horny dude just like everyone else.

[Indy Coug]

Is getting a burning in your bosom sufficient enough to escape the scarlet letter of "blind obedience"?

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Satan's plan was not about obedience, obedience connotes having a choice and choosing the right decision. You are smart enough to know the difference. One can be blindly disobedient every bit as much blindly obedient.

Perhaps it is all semantics but I think we agree. I have never advocated that man does not have a responsibility to work out on their own, I just strongly believe that at some point in time we are all going to have to make decisions when we know it is the will of God but we don't know why.

let me restate then, if it's only about making the right decision, then satan's plan will do that. i think it's the same thing.

i agree we sometimes have to do things we don't understand, but unless there is a spiritual connection, there is no growth, no change, which is the point of it all.
There is an enormous difference between "knowing it is the will of god" and "someone told me to do it".

[jay santos]

You guys are missing what I think is the most obvious case of blind obedience: obeying when you disagree with the commandment or obeying after you've studied it out and still don't see the reason for it.

The anti-blind-obeyers here seem to have this concept that blind obeyers are robots who act without thinking. I think the vast majority of the blind obeyers are those who have thought about it and still don't dig it, but obey just to obey.

I think it's pretty rare for someone to go about obeying all the commandments without thinking about them. If you haven't gained a testimony of what you're obeying, then it's likely because you've thought about it and just don't see eye to eye with the leaders.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Brian

let me restate then, if it's only about making the right decision, then satan's plan will do that. i think it's the same thing.

i agree we sometimes have to do things we don't understand, but unless there is a spiritual connection, there is no growth, no change, which is the point of it all.
There is an enormous difference between "knowing it is the will of god" and "someone told me to do it".

So are we back to "I know not save THE LORD hath commanded me?"

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

So are we back to "I know not save THE LORD hath commanded me?"

god isn't so direct with me. i really have to work at it to make sure it's god and not just me or someone else talking. i guess if i had a vision, and it was completely obvious it would be different.