Poll: What form of church discipline do I deserve?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Levin

Interesting; I'm sure this is exactly how excommunicated members feel.

And the rest of your post is spot on too; just a secretive clerical decision, and the person can just do what he wants. It's that attitude that really makes him feel as if he hasn't been kicked out.

Good show!

do you really think his current participation in church, which he wishes to continue, is much different than one of somebody who attends after excommunication?

He probably has no calling and participates very little, other than voluminous visits with his Bishop.

Whether he is "officially" cut off seems besides the point.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Whether he is "officially" cut off seems besides the point.

You don't get it. Have you ever met anyone who has been ex'ed? I have met many, and your attitude would be anathema to them, akin to their feelings for their Stake President when they appeared before him in sack cloth and ashes, but was shown the door, b/c, as you and Tex say, he needed it for his repentance, and in any event, it's not a big deal, just a simple clerical matter that will remain "confidential." LOL! Excommunications onfidential in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Sains! LOL! You've obviously never heard the "Relief Society" jokes.

Get a grip on reality, man.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Levin

You don't get it. Have you ever met anyone who has been ex'ed? I have met many, and your attitude would be anathema to them, akin to their feelings for their Stake President when they appeared before him in sack cloth and ashes, but was shown the door, b/c, as you and Tex say, he needed it for his repentance, and in any event, it's not a big deal, just a simple clerical matter that will remain "confidential." LOL! Excommunications onfidential in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Sains! LOL! You've obviously never heard the "Relief Society" jokes.

Get a grip on reality, man.

I must say, Levin, your opposition to excommunication for the penitent is getting smaller and smaller. Sounds like to me you have a beef with the process in general.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by Tex

I must say, Levin, your opposition to excommunication for the penitent is getting smaller and smaller. Sounds like to me you have a beef with the process in general.

[MikeWaters]

I'm suggesting you could think of him as already excommunicated, without the official stamp.

I grant you, the stamp holds meaning, but let's not pretend that a person in this kind of situation isn't already in some kind of state of separation.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I'm suggesting you could think of him as already excommunicated, without the official stamp.

I grant you, the stamp holds meaning, but let's not pretend that a person in this kind of situation isn't already in some kind of state of separation.

A penitent person seeks to close the separation; excommunication memorializes it.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by Levin

You don't get it. Have you ever met anyone who has been ex'ed? I have met many, and your attitude would be anathema to them, akin to their feelings for their Stake President when they appeared before him in sack cloth and ashes, but was shown the door, b/c, as you and Tex say, he needed it for his repentance, and in any event, it's not a big deal, just a simple clerical matter that will remain "confidential." LOL! Excommunications onfidential in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Sains! LOL! You've obviously never heard the "Relief Society" jokes.

Get a grip on reality, man.

The true measure of the mercy extended to the penitent is not during the disciplinary hearing but rather the actions of the leaders after a decision has been made. I can not claim to know many ex'ed members, but, I have met several and have counseled with at least two. Of the two individuals that I counseled with, one I can confidently state that had a discplinary hearing not taken place and had he not been ex'ed, he would have continued committing serious transgressions. The second individual felt the only way she could be forgiven by God was to have been ex'ed. Both have now returned to full fellowship and all their blessings restored. Was it is easy? Of course not, but their diligence and sincere desire to be re-baptized was well worth taking the steps required of them to return to full fellowship. I was not part of their disciplinary councils, but, at least in these two cases, I believe the right decision was made by their leaders.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

The true measure of the mercy extended to the penitent is not during the disciplinary hearing but rather the actions of the leaders after a decision has been made. I can not claim to know many ex'ed members, but, I have met several and have counseled with at least two. Of the two individuals that I counseled with, one I can confidently state that had a discplinary hearing not taken place and had he not been ex'ed, he would have continued committing serious transgressions. The second individual felt the only way she could be forgiven by God was to have been ex'ed. Both have now returned to full fellowship and all their blessings restored. Was it is easy? Of course not, but their diligence and sincere desire to be re-baptized was well worth taking the steps required of them to return to full fellowship. I was not part of their disciplinary councils, but, at least in these two cases, I believe the right decision was made by their leaders.

Hypothetical to you.

What if those two had not been ex'ed but rather simply had privileges removed followed by weeekly meetings with a leader?

How would that have changed things?

[BYUHoopster]

It is not with the process of excommunication but rather with what I am taught to do regarding people that offend me and sometimes get exed. Let me give you a real life example. There is a member of my wife's family that for the last 30 years has committed some very grevious sexual sins and during that same time served as Branch President, Bishop, Counselor in Stake Presidency, and Bishop again. My family is also currently in the same ward as this individual. This information came out in the last six months and he was excommunicated as expected. No problems there.

Since we learned this information we have been trying to deal with it and cope with the fact that we never really knew this individual. To put it simply, this had been devastating to my wife and basically destroyed her family. In counseling with the same church leaders that excommunicated this person we have been told that we haveto forgive him and love him and that he needs our support at this time.

To me that seems so inconsistent, you must forgive him now but he is going to need time to be forgiven by the church and the Lord. In my minds eye, I picture a Lord that freely forgives the truly repentant. Since I am not perfect, it takes me a lot longer to work through my emotions, anger, selfishness, etc., regarding the offense than it should the Lord. Yet I am suppose to forgive long before the Lord or His church does? That is my issue with the process and what I am currently struggling with now.

Sorry for hijacking the thread. . .

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BYUHoopster

It is not with the process of excommunication but rather with what I am taught to do regarding people that offend me and sometimes get exed. Let me give you a real life example. There is a member of my wife's family that for the last 30 years has committed some very grevious sexual sins and during that same time served as Branch President, Bishop, Counselor in Stake Presidency, and Bishop again. My family is also currently in the same ward as this individual. This information came out in the last six months and he was excommunicated as expected. No problems there.

Since we learned this information we have been trying to deal with it and cope with the fact that we never really knew this individual. To put it simply, this had been devastating to my wife and basically destroyed her family. In counseling with the same church leaders that excommunicated this person we have been told that we haveto forgive him and love him and that he needs our support at this time.

To me that seems so inconsistent, you must forgive him now but he is going to need time to be forgiven by the church and the Lord. In my minds eye, I picture a Lord that freely forgives the truly repentant. Since I am not perfect, it takes me a lot longer to work through my emotions, anger, selfishness, etc., regarding the offense than it should the Lord. Yet I am suppose to forgive long before the Lord or His church does? That is my issue with the process and what I am currently struggling with now.

Sorry for hijacking the thread. . .

This attitude is prevalent within society and to some extent is probably natural. One naturally feels outrage at the hypocrisy of this individual, but the reason forgiveness of the sinner, even one who has not repented, matters, is your mental health. There are probably some indirect benefits to the sinner,but there are loads of benefits to you.

And I believe "organizational forgiveness" to be unrelated to divine forgiveness. Perhaps only the sinner needs to feel worthy and the forgiveness exists at the moment of sin.