10-23-2008, 03:27 PM | #11 |
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Pure capitalism has never existed. We have always been a socialist country in that the government takes our tax dollars, redistributes them to the community, has social programs, welfare, etc...
You folks are also the same people who claim that the US is a "democracy." So this fear that the US will become socialist......we have always been socialist. I have to run now....gotta go pay back my government subsidized student loans, drive on public roads, maybe get pulled over by the police, who are paid via our collective tax dollars....
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10-23-2008, 03:32 PM | #12 | |
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10-23-2008, 03:41 PM | #13 | |
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I am pointing out a simple fact.....we are a socialist country already. So all these laments (yours included) that we are "headed" towards "european style socialism" are ridiculous and scaremongering......the preferred tool of the GOP. Read your very own post....there is no real substance to it. You make claims of "degrees of focus," yet have absolutely no real way of measuring these degrees. Yawn.
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10-23-2008, 03:44 PM | #14 | |
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10-23-2008, 03:54 PM | #15 | |
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our economy stinks, we are fighting an unpopular and expensive war.....there is a massive housing crisis and more people are losing jobs right now.....and we are lamenting that under these circumstances, the government might step up some social programs to help out? These cries of "socialism" are akin to the crazy homeless guy with the sign that says, "The End is near." If people don't want their taxes raised, then just say that. But they should not hide behind sweeping claims of "european style socialism" and "marxism." I guess one thought is that in citing "european style socialism," are those folks admitting that there is a "US style socialism?" If so, then I can get on board with that.
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10-23-2008, 04:17 PM | #16 |
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My concern would be along the lines of BYU71. I'm not afraid of the label of "socialism" if we reach the kind of society that I would like to be a part of. I think the thing that frightens conservatives is the holding up of Europe as the "ideal". Europe (France, at least) seemed very caste-like, as BYU71 pointed out. I know there are statistics that show that mobility between classes has steadily declined in the US--I'd be curious to see the comparison with France. Maybe this is just a function of a much older government and society.
Additionally, the average French citizen seemed worse off than the average American--it was rare to have two cars, rare to even have a clothes-drier or a microwave, to point out a few examples. At the same time, there were fewer poor and certainly a better safety net. So where do our collective values lie--a Rawlsian ideal or one of individualism? We as a country have always favored the latter, so the term "socialist" is fairly effective as a scare tactic. Perhaps we're shifting. |
10-23-2008, 04:55 PM | #17 | |
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I think the French culture itself is a very big part of their economic troubles. When you have a nation where truck drivers feel empowered to bring economic activity to a standstill, that's a toxic cultural characteristic you wouldn't find here. I can't imagine any scenario where Americans would tolerate that kind of selfishness by one group. For example, here's a private-only action that would be a national disaster - what if all the home owners who are under water on their mortages decided to "strike" until they got more favorable rates and/or lowered mortage loans. It would be a calamity... but no tax money would be involved! |
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10-23-2008, 05:03 PM | #18 | |
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People are still praising the U.S.'s resiliant capitalist system. Remember when Europe called this financial crisis largely a U.S. phenomenon a few weeks ago? Well, what really was happening is U.S. lenders, less enmeshed with the government, were quicker to discern and publicise their catastrophic problems than European counterparts. But for U.S. leadership, iroically stemming from U.S. free enterprise's original self-diagnosis, all the socialist countries of Europ would still be staggering along in a blind torpor, heading for depression and untold human mysery. If the U.S. goes socialist, it will destry an essential part of what makes the U.S. great, what makes it the most innovative and dynamic society in history. But I'm starting to think the whole country has gone wussified like you, Ma'ake.
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10-23-2008, 05:18 PM | #19 |
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These are bizarre examples of a slippery slope towards heavy government intervention given that pretty much all of these countries used to have kings, monarchies, aristocracies, czars (or tsars, for crossword puzzle purposes), etc.
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10-23-2008, 05:29 PM | #20 | |
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UK's experimentation with socialism and abridgement of civil liberties (still ongoing) is actually a cautionary tale for us. We and our mother country are comparable, indeed of a piece, in our historical fight agains authoritarianism. When Hitler, Stalin, Marx, etc. railed agaisnt the filthy, materialistic capitalist nations (as Waters' and Lebowski's friends the Islamofacists do now), they were primarily talking about Great Britain, though GB's maturing and restless offspring to the west loomed large.
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