My brother, 2 years younger than me, is gay

[MikeWaters]

Most of you already know I have a gay brother.

He is a BYU graduate and a returned missionary. He is still on the church rolls but holds no desire to affiliate with the church. And the love that he once held for the church has disappeared such that he is more likely to get annoyed by church things than not when I bring them up. But overall, the church is something he doesn't dwell on. He doesn't bring it up.

I've mentioned to him that there are some members who don't support Proposition 8. This pleased him.

My brother lives in CA. As I try to imagine how gay marriage could impact my life, I try to imagine whether my brother being married to a man would negatively impact me and my family. I compare this to what I have already experienced--my brother being with a committed partner. It's hard for me to really figure out how him being married would be harmful. Rather it would give the rest of us some clarity. When my youngest brother has a girlfriend, she is not family. Engaged? Pretty much family. Married? Definitely family. I like clarity. I like to know where things stand. I know that not everyone cares, but for me, it makes my life easier as I don't have to guess. But you might say, clarity is a pretty small thing when it comes to making such a large societal change.

In response, I would say this: he wants to be able to get married. It means a big deal to HIM. If I am going to try and deny him this, I feel like I need a compelling reason. The question of marriage in CA is a civic question. I think the idea that it will eventually lead to the govt. "forcing" churches to marry gays is ridiculous. Can I support my brother on this civic question that will have a direct impact on his life?

Now having said all this, I have said here before. I am not a big supporter of gay marriage. I'm not beating on a drum to have all states approve gay marriage. I think it's a question that each state can decide. I really don't like the courts stepping in and saying it is a right. I voted against the Texas state constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. I'm increasingly of the opinion that gay marriage would NOT be the cataclysmic thing that has been predicted.

There is no way I would contribute money to support of Prop 8, and no way I would be beating on doors. I would not vote for it. And I would have find it very difficult to worship in an environment where support for it is the main thrust.

I just want to point out that this is a very real issue to gays in the church, gays formerly in the church, and their families. It is no doubt being played out in the thousands of such LDS families in CA and elsewhere.

I think it's pretty safe to say that my parents are strong opponents of gay marriage. I tell my brother on the other hand, that are some LDS on your side, and I hope that one day there is a place for you in the church, whether as an excommunicated but participating member, or a full-fledged member.

The church actually has a compassionate vision where all families in the covenant will be together forever. I try to be compassionate in the here and now, and it has been a long, difficult journey for me.

[Tex]

One wonders what the world would look like if the predicate for all laws were, "If it doesn't personally affect me, then it must not be bad."

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

One wonders what the world would look like if the predicate for all laws were, "If it doesn't personally affect me, then it must not be bad."

Tex, it does affect me, as one day I may have a brother-in-law who is gay. But it is far from clear to me that this will be a damaging thing.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

One wonders what the world would look like if the predicate for all laws were, "If it doesn't personally affect me, then it must not be bad."

Tex, I'm not sure this thread was the right place to be making that comment. Mike, you undoubtedly face a difficult situation that most of us can't fully understand and appreciate.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Excellent, Mike. Thanks for posting that.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Tex, I'm not sure this thread was the right place to be making that comment. Mike, you undoubtedly face a difficult situation that most of us can't fully understand and appreciate.

Fair enough. I don't mean to dance on someone's grave. The struggles that families face who deal with this issue are not lost on me.

[Gidget]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Most of you already know I have a gay brother.

He is a BYU graduate and a returned missionary. He is still on the church rolls but holds no desire to affiliate with the church. And the love that he once held for the church has disappeared such that he is more likely to get annoyed by church things than not when I bring them up. But overall, the church is something he doesn't dwell on. He doesn't bring it up.

I've mentioned to him that there are some members who don't support Proposition 8. This pleased him.

My brother lives in CA. As I try to imagine how gay marriage could impact my life, I try to imagine whether my brother being married to a man would negatively impact me and my family. I compare this to what I have already experienced--my brother being with a committed partner. It's hard for me to really figure out how him being married would be harmful. Rather it would give the rest of us some clarity. When my youngest brother has a girlfriend, she is not family. Engaged? Pretty much family. Married? Definitely family. I like clarity. I like to know where things stand. I know that not everyone cares, but for me, it makes my life easier as I don't have to guess. But you might say, clarity is a pretty small thing when it comes to making such a large societal change.

In response, I would say this: he wants to be able to get married. It means a big deal to HIM. If I am going to try and deny him this, I feel like I need a compelling reason. The question of marriage in CA is a civic question. I think the idea that it will eventually lead to the govt. "forcing" churches to marry gays is ridiculous. Can I support my brother on this civic question that will have a direct impact on his life?

Now having said all this, I have said here before. I am not a big supporter of gay marriage. I'm not beating on a drum to have all states approve gay marriage. I think it's a question that each state can decide. I really don't like the courts stepping in and saying it is a right. I voted against the Texas state constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. I'm increasingly of the opinion that gay marriage would NOT be the cataclysmic thing that has been predicted.

There is no way I would contribute money to support of Prop 8, and no way I would be beating on doors. I would not vote for it. And I would have find it very difficult to worship in an environment where support for it is the main thrust.

I just want to point out that this is a very real issue to gays in the church, gays formerly in the church, and their families. It is no doubt being played out in the thousands of such LDS families in CA and elsewhere.

I think it's pretty safe to say that my parents are strong opponents of gay marriage. I tell my brother on the other hand, that are some LDS on your side, and I hope that one day there is a place for you in the church, whether as an excommunicated but participating member, or a full-fledged member.

The church actually has a compassionate vision where all families in the covenant will be together forever. I try to be compassionate in the here and now, and it has been a long, difficult journey for me.

Thank you for sharing - you can tell your brother that I am not a huge supporter of Prop 8 But the truth is I don't support homo-sexuality either. As an active temple worthy member I find this whole issue to be conflicting within me. I mean, I agree that I don't think gay marriage is going to be cataclysmic (like many -especially LDS- people do). I don't see how it would hurt me or my family, but I don't agree with it, but it's not the marrying that I don't agree with - I feel homo-sexuality to begin with is wrong - so is gay marriage the straw on the camels back, not for me. It makes no difference to me that gays can marry or not. And I especially don't like that this political issue has made people feel like their standing and worthiness in the church is being questioned. That is just very sad to me, and regardless of everyone else, I don't like it personally. I wish wards and stakes in CA weren't as involved in "gathering the troops" in support of Prop 8. In the end we can share our opinions at the voting polls. And I don't know what the future holds for the gay LDS community, I can't see them holding temple recommends but I would love to see them embraced and loved and fellow shipped. Wouldn't that be the best way to strengthen at least some part of their testimonies anyway?

[Gidget]

I feel the need to further amend my last comment. In my opinion a testimony is more than knowing the scriptures are true, or that the temple ceremonies are necessary and sacred, or that the BoM is the word of God. I feel that a testimony of members and leaders in church is very important. As LDS we talk a lot about striving to be an example, and sometimes I feel like we fail to show that we are or can be an accepting and loving people. Does that mean we aren't, I don't know, obviously it is subject and individual. I just know that when I joined the Church the first thing that helped build my testimony was the members. They inspired me to read the scriptures, and they inspired me to learn more, and build my faith. It sounds really cliche, but I think we can do a lot more with our steadfast love than with our closed boundaries. I guess I have a lot trust in LDS people, and people in general, but I believe it is within us if we try, to stand our ground and accept and love at the same time. Might not be easy but I think it can be done. Mike, I don't have any gay family members, but I know if I did, I would love them and want them to feel welcome at all the places I go, like church. I hope for your brother that he encounters LDS people who can still embrace him, without looking over their shoulder in the chapel to see who is watching.

[Tex]

I feel like I ought to clarify my comment as well.

I don't in any way condone hostile, ostracizing, harassing, or otherwise unChristlike behavior in dealing with those who struggle with homosexuality. As with all sinners (which in truth includes us all), but especially those saddled by serious sin, they should be reached out to and ministered to.

Some will say that barring gays from marriage, among other things, is de facto ostracizing. This is true, in the same sense that our own sins ostracize us from God. Declaring a certain behavior sinful to someone who very much desires to engage in it can indeed have that effect. To a greater or lesser extent, this is how smokers, alcoholics, adulterers, thieves, and so forth might feel.

The tricky part as members (and leaders) of the church is to walk that line described by that hopelessly overused cliche, "love the sinner, hate the sin." We cannot modify God's laws to gratify our own pride or ambitions or unrighteous desires, but we can still reach out with love to those who wish we could.

Homosexuality is a violation of the laws of chastity, and there's no indication that will change. I'm glad you continue to reach out to your brother, Mike, but part of me wonders if telling him of all the LDS that support his position just exacerbates his problem, rather than helping it.

[Levin]

Your brother's gay marriage will affect your family greatly when your son reaches puberty and begins to receive conflicting sexual signals.