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09-28-2007, 10:56 PM | #1 | |
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HISTORY - (from the GREEK historia = inquiry) as a written, rational inquiry into the reasons things happened DID start in the Mediterranean, probably with Herodotus in the mid fifth century BCE. I'm not talking about accounts of the past. I'm not talking about lists of achievements or tribute. I'm not talking about divine transmissions of human relationships with deity. I'm talking about history as the application of human reason to understanding the human condition, independent of religious explanations, independent of authoritative "official" versions. This DID originate in Greece. Rationality, in my opinion, is the crowning achievement of the ancient Greeks and their greatest gift to humanity. Rather than refute this with accusations of ignorance and bigotry, I invite you to provide counter-arguments - preferably supported with concrete evidence and examples. We at least owe the Greeks as much.
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09-29-2007, 01:45 PM | #2 | |
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And what is the Chinese root for the Chinese word history? Is it also derived from the Greeks? Western culture, history, religiosity represents one third or less of human kinds culture, history, religiosity; yes, we can thank the Greeks for philosophy and sitcoms, but who do the Greeks thank? What the Greeks accomplished did not occur in a bubble. Furthermore I never claimed ignorance, I claimed myopia, which perhaps is incorrect terminology; prejudice might be more correct. |
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09-29-2007, 02:09 PM | #3 | |
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Christianity's origins, myths, and cycles are not a global phenomenon, in my opinion. Did you think I said so? I can't tell what, exactly, you're accusing me of. Why would I mention Chinese history when discussing the origins of (western!) Christianity? Seems like a red herring to me, but obviously you have something in mind. Sure, the Greeks weren't in a vacuum, but their innovations have impacted today's (western) world - the world you and I live in - more than any other ancient culture. I take umbrage at your insinuation that I'm somehow prejudiced or narrow-minded because I don't discuss the cultures of the far east. I would, if I felt it appropriate. The religion you and I are most familiar with - modern, western Christianity - especially LDS faith - is a product of western tradition. The Chinese, Indian, African, or Native American cultures and traditions had negligible influence on the ideas that formed the creeds, doctrines, and theologies of today's Christian and LDS church. If you disagree, please provide a rationale and counter-argument. Also, a few specific examples of my malfeasance would help me understand what you're getting at. I'm not trying to pick a fight, TB, just trying to follow you better. Your criticism is a bit mystifying to me, since this thread was begun as a report of some comparative myth in western thought - myth that continues to hold resonance in today's Christian, especially LDS world. If you'd like to do some comparative myth with some non-western cultures, be my guest, but I imagine you'd be hard pressed to find anything that correlates with the origins of contemporary Christian / LDS culture and belief.
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09-29-2007, 03:14 PM | #4 | |
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Your comments here in this forum often strike me as highly prejudicial … and as sweeping generalizations born of a focus on a specific time and place. It vexes me, leaves me feeling as though I am being spoon-fed, even strong-armed. Your motivations and tactics are not so different from persons that espouse, in your terms, the standard LDS approach. Neither you nor the person is any more convincing than the other. I’m not arguing against the innovation of the Greeks and it’s influence on our society. In a different thread I might applaud it, in fact I access Greek rational to teach principles of art and design daily. I am arguing against a lack of breadth and the condescension on the board—and I guess I am taking it out on you. I am not as learned, well read as you and other classicists or scholars on this board … but I am no less intelligent and simply do not accept your view as authority, for it comes across in tone as definitive when in fact it is fluid. And yet the mere mention of fluidity codifies my views and I am relegated to the body of souls who peruse these pages that are conventional, insecure, irrational, and unlearned … censured. And that is where I will stay as I return to my life’s diversions and realms of expertise. I might read elsewhere that I take things too personally. Good! Then I am playing to my strengths. |
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09-29-2007, 09:35 PM | #5 | |
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I never intend to browbeat, but to set forth my views with as much supporting evidence as I can, and I do my best to make a persuasive case for my ideas. I don't ask anyone to accept my view "as authority" but to reach his/her own conclusions. If there's a way to refute or oppose my views with rational, logical, fact-based arguments, I welcome the dialogue. I'm always open to a well formed, well researched argument, and am willing to be persuaded (if the argument is good enough). I don't know everything, nor have I have ever claimed to. If my ideas oppose your personal convictions, I don't mean to offend. If you're happy and secure with your convictions, what does it matter is someone wonders, or even believes differently? It's not like I've singled out anyone personally, intending to undermine his/her faith. You'll notice I posted this in the Religious Studies, not in the Religion category.
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09-29-2007, 10:58 PM | #6 | |
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Furthermore you outline the conditions for any such challenge of the authority of your fact based opinions by demanding the argument be ‘good enough’ … what is ‘good enough’? By what standard is ‘good enough’ measured? I happily am the braying ass in this thread. |
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09-29-2007, 11:09 PM | #7 | |
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09-30-2007, 12:09 AM | #8 | |
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But I would be naive to think I was influencing very many CGers. There are some bona fide geniuses on here, and most people have pretty made up their minds where they stand on the various issues we recycle through fairly regularly. I doubt very many people are moving very far on any of the major issues of faith, religion, etc. that we post about. In general, I just like reading what other people write (whether astute, insightful, or inane) and am just happy to participate on occasion in a few of the many categories. There's nothing inherently wrong with irrational, faith-based, or emotionally grounded ideas - but this may not be the best forum for them. I thought this was the reason for separating Religion from Religious Studies. But I do value your input and views. The world always needs artists, and their creative ways of viewing the world.
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09-29-2007, 11:14 PM | #9 |
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tooblue doesn't make rational arguments and this thread is the proof. Utter gobbledygook. Does anyone know what the hades he's saying here?
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09-29-2007, 11:22 PM | #10 |
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And enters Seattle ... to contend that he does not understand the satire and that my comments are utter gobbledygook, ie irrational. Perfect timing. It's about time we systematically compartmentalized thoughts and opinions into easily prosecutable categories.
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