Are we harder on our own then other religions?

[RC Vikings]

My roommate in Provo who got ex'ed said he hated how they went around the room and these twelve guys told him how much they loved and cared about him when they didn't even know him. His was not a positive experience.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Tex

I ask because if you've been involved in one, chances are "love and repentance" and support is exactly what got expressed to the person being disciplined. That doesn't mean they liked it or agreed with it. It also doesn't mean EVERY council follows that standard, but I'd say those are the exception rather than the rule.

As for telling other people, you are reinforcing the exact point I was making to santos (and which Leb challenged).

You kick em out for punishment. I am not saying you aren't compassionate about it or feel bad. However, you are being punishment. It is the thing hung over the head in order to get you to obey the rules.

It is a deep part of our culture. BYU, you think getting kicked out of BYU for an HC violation is mainly a tool of showing love and compassion. Remember it was started by Ernie Wilkinson.

How about CB. Are you telling me suspensions are given through love and compassion.

The Lord and some of the brethern I believe operate at that level. However not most of the lay ministry in the church.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by RC Vikings

My roommate in Provo who got ex'ed said he hated how they went around the room and these twelve guys told him how much they loved and cared about him when they didn't even know him. His was not a positive experience.

My guess is those expressions are about as heart felt in most cases as when we ask the Lord to nourish and strengthen our bodies. People on those panels think alot like Mr P. is my guess.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by RC Vikings

My roommate in Provo who got ex'ed said he hated how they went around the room and these twelve guys told him how much they loved and cared about him when they didn't even know him. His was not a positive experience.

there must be a very strong psychological desire to feel like you are cutting off a person because you love them so much.

do the same folks feel love when someone who has been inactive for years, that no one knows personally, is convicted of murder, and excommunicated in absentia? (according to my father, excommunications due to crime, where the person excommunicated was not present, were not uncommon).

[Tex]

Originally Posted by RC Vikings

My roommate in Provo who got ex'ed said he hated how they went around the room and these twelve guys told him how much they loved and cared about him when they didn't even know him. His was not a positive experience.

*Cue laundry list of disgruntled excommunicatee stories.

Originally Posted by BYU71

You kick em out for punishment. I am not saying you aren't compassionate about it or feel bad. However, you are being punishment. It is the thing hung over the head in order to get you to obey the rules.

It is a deep part of our culture. BYU, you think getting kicked out of BYU for an HC violation is mainly a tool of showing love and compassion. Remember it was started by Ernie Wilkinson.

How about CB. Are you telling me suspensions are given through love and compassion.

The Lord and some of the brethern I believe operate at that level. However not most of the lay ministry in the church.

Heh. If you're seriously comparing disciplinary councils, which revolve around serious sin and eternal salvation, to honor code violations and Cougarboard suspensions, then you have complete lost my interest as a participant in this discussion.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Tex

That they think it's bizarre is circumstansially supportive of my statement, is it not?

I'm not terribly familiar with how other churches do it either, except that what I've been told is that they are usually strictly punitive acts. Do you disagree?

They think it's bizarre because it rarely (if ever) happens in their churches. They see it as a relic. Like blood-letting.

How is excommunication anything other than a punitive act? It's a consequence of extreme behavior not approved by the church.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Tex

*Cue laundry list of disgruntled excommunicatee stories.



Heh. If you're seriously comparing disciplinary councils, which revolve around serious sin and eternal salvation, to honor code violations and Cougarboard suspensions, then you have complete lost my interest as a participant in this discussion.

Fair enough, we both agree that HC at BYU is trivial and not a big deal. I expect to see you argue that on my side from now on.

If you said some of the excommunications are done with love and compassion, I could buy it. To say they are more about that than punishment shows you live in quite a shell and yes discussing something with you is quite fruitless.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

They think it's bizarre because it rarely (if ever) happens in their churches. They see it as a relic. Like blood-letting.

How is excommunication anything other than a punitive act? It's a consequence of extreme behavior not approved by the church.

What is wrong with a punitive act. I really don't see why people shouldn't be punished.

If you commit an act that requires excommunication, then either you repent and want back in. If you don't want back in, what is the big deal in getting ex'd.

I don't see why Tex has to portray it as love and why someone else finds it bizzare those who break rules are punished.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by BYU71

What is wrong with a punitive act. I really don't see why people shouldn't be punished.

If you commit an act that requires excommunication, then either you repent and want back in. If you don't want back in, what is the big deal in getting ex'd.

I don't see why Tex has to portray it as love and why someone else finds it bizzare those who break rules are punished.

Well, it's part of my history and culture so it doesn't seem so bizarre to me. But to outsiders it appears to be a heavy-handed way to enforce conformity and centralized control. And an extreme way to punish sinners. Some people believe we should leave the punishment part in God's hands.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

They think it's bizarre because it rarely (if ever) happens in their churches. They see it as a relic. Like blood-letting.

You're just continuing to make my point, Leb. I'm starting to hear an echo.

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

How is excommunication anything other than a punitive act? It's a consequence of extreme behavior not approved by the church.

It didn't say there wasn't a punitive component; certainly having your blessings and covenants revoked is not a reward. I simply said it was not strictly about being punitive, that it was as much about love and repentance as punishment.

Originally Posted by BYU71

Fair enough, we both agree that HC at BYU is trivial and not a big deal. I expect to see you argue that on my side from now on.

Heh. That is not what I said.

Originally Posted by BYU71

If you said some of the excommunications are done with love and compassion, I could buy it. To say they are more about that than punishment shows you live in quite a shell and yes discussing something with you is quite fruitless.

If so it's a shell that most of the lay church leadership lives in too. At least I've got company in there.