Do believers really believe?

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I generally agree with this. I think, ironically, this atheist gives human nature, including peole who "believe" in a pre-Enlightenment Judeo-Christian God, too much credit. First, most people live unexamined lives. Most people don't think critically. They don't questoin the fundamental premises of their lives. It's just not in them, or it's just too costly to do so and act upon such self-examination.

Second, the example he uses--that if Christians really believed millions of babies were being exterminated they would lay down their lives if necessary to try to stop it--is contrary to what history has shown about human nature. Just today I read the following from an essay by Ian Kershaw, Hitler's foremost biographer:

"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference.... The general passivity which marked the most pervasive reaction—or perhaps one should say non-reaction—to the persecution and extermination of the Jews reflected above all the low level in the ranking of priorities which the fate of the Jews occupied in German consciousness.

"So far in history no other advanced society has experienced a collapse of collective moral consciousness and individual civil morality approximating to the steepness of the decline in Germany after 1933. It was above all the absence of a choice against evil."

The indifferent masses of German people weren't evil. They were just too worried about getting enough to eat, about their children's futures in war torn Germany, about loved ones on the front, about heating their homes, to give much thought or sacrifice to save the millions they knew were being exterminated, including children. My sense is the same thing is true about Christians who truly believe abortion is murder. They aren't going to revolt against government to stop it because they're distracted by their own immediate problems. They're indiffernt, but not because they don't believe it's murder.

That being said, I think non-sequitor got it right in responding to tooblue's gibberish. Outside of Mormonism's "I know. . ." culture, belief and faith are considered the realistic end of a commitment to spirituality; purporting to "know" a supernatural element is considered a self-deluded immaturity, or, as Barabara says, an ironic expression of insecure faith. I don't think this atheist makes any more convincing argument against the legitimacy of belief or faith than tooblue makes one for "KNOWING" God lives.

If it is gibberish then contend with me directly. Barbara's comments stem from an assumption in regards to my motivation. You have laced her comments with inflammatory language so as to deflect from your own insecurity that compels you to tell another person what they can or cannot know. For every finger you point at me there are three pointing back at you.

Again, I know there is a God.