do 8 year olds "decide" to be baptized?

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Levin

I disagree with the emphasis on church membership here. Baptism is not about church membership, IMO, but about sin, forgiveness, and Christ.

The Church comes in by defining what it means to follow Christ, which baptism is a promise to do. Too often, though, the focus is then on the WofW and other such regulations. To not drink is to follow Christ.

I'd root "following Christ" more in the Sermon on the Mount, and in that situation, your "Church as an authority figure" disolves somewhat. What the Church then becomes is an association of brothers and sisters, a human laboratory, in which to apply the Sermon.

Once again, you misunderstand. I haven't set aside sin, forgiveness, or Christ. I've suggested that the ritual itself does not affect forgiveness without maturing in Christ (which goes along with moral development, and could occur at baptism, but would much more importantly need to occur througout one's life. This is one of my major points). Baptism as a continual process is where I've put the value, and the ritual is only the starting point. That's why I'm not all out of sorts about baptism for eight year olds even though they don't have a developed moral sense.

You don't understand what I am talking about in my discussion of membership and the Church as an authority figure (and apparently because you don't understand Kohlberg). The Church as an authority that can assist with moral development is not in an either/or with what is taught in the Sermon on the Mount. We agree that the Church is a place where the Sermon on the Mount can be applied. What you don't understand is that I have posited the value of the Church as an authority figure specifically at the ritual of baptism. The ritual of baptism is a liminal activity that confers membership (and a sense of expectations and responsibility), and the Church authorizes the liminality--there is distinct value in these specific activities that can help further moral development.

I know some people have gone at you a bit and you might be feeling reactionary, but please take the time to understand what I've written. I'm not asking that you agree, only that you make a sincere effort to represent my position accurately.