Re Logos: For Biblical scholars and Classicists

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

This is not a simple question. At a superficial level, at least since Talmage bookish Mormons have used the (so-called) Great Apostasy as an explanatoin for the need for a restored Gospel. FARMS likes to pretend at scholarship (sorry for the hyperbole but I don't know how else to make this point), and the Greek ingredient in Christianity is the concrete thing it has identified as constituting apostasy from Christ's original church. But if such a church existed, it is only in theory. The seminal writings and concepts of Christianity, including the entire New Testament, the persona of Christ (the NT is our only record of him except for brief references in Josephus and Tacitus), the elegant theology of the atonement, all are permeated with Greek philosophy, indeed, were reduced to writing originally in Greek language. And we see their antecedents in the writings of Philo, the Stoics, Plato, Socrates, et al.

Whatever "Christianity" may have existed before the Greek element was introduced is not the Christianity of Paul, of the Gospels (of Mary and Joseph, the Wise Men, Herod, etc.), of the Atonement, or indeed really of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. The Christianity we all have known and loved is a product of men thoroughly imbued in Greek philosopy. Take the Greek out and essentially all you have is a radical offshoot of Judiasm existing only in theroy, of which there is no written record. Some here have even thought that Christ actually quoted from the Septuagint, as if he was speaking in Aramic then suddenly started quoting OT passages in Greek! Of course these passages appear in Greek because the Septuagint is the Bible the writers of the NT used. So, if you want to get rid of the Greek element in Chrsianity the first thing you must do is grab your Bible and toss the whole thing (with a vengence) in the dumpster.

Two thousand years later the Classical ingredient of Christianity has come to be associated with Catholicism, Russion or Greek Orthodox, the older side of the Christian tree. Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant side, in fact rebeled primarily against the Renaissaince, which was fundamentally a reawakening to Christianity's Classical heritage. Go to the Louvre or the Met and in the Renaissance section you'll see scores of statues imitating Roman and Greek work, and paintings filled with Classical motifs. The glorious edifices of the Vatican were constructed in large part by digging up and re-using Classical ruins, and partially imitating them. So the Protestant side of the tree has never been comfortable with its Greek heritage. But this is a form of self-loathing. Because Martin Luther, Calvin, Joseph Smith and the rest of them all celebrated Christmas and Easter and revered the nativity scene, the symbolism of the crucfiction and Christ's suffering, etc., and all this is permeated with the Greek. It was all originally created in Greek words.

I am still having a little trouble here. Perhaps to understand it I need to read the Great Apostasy, which I never have read. OTOH, I suspect that it may go a little deeper than that. IOW, my guess is it is not just a dispute about the cause of the apostasy but about whether there ever was a church at all in the terms we LDS think about it (which you suggest in your post). This seems to me to be a much larger issue than the source of heretical and corrupting influences. It's one thing to say that the concept of logos was borrowed from the Greek; it is another to say that without the Greek there was no concept of logos nor any comprehension of that role.

A couple of thoughts. First, you did have an agenda, even if you weren't trying to push it, and I think you have shown it here. Second, The unwritten version of Christianity, as you describe it, could still be described in Hellenic terms, could it not? The apostasy was from practice and doctrine (IMO), but not from expression of same, per se. I rather enjoyed the readings from the links you and Arch posted and I see little in there that disturbs me in my faith. In fact, I quite like some of the concepts I encounter there and see nothing wrong with them, be they from Greece or elsewhere. To be honest, I have never really paid attention to FARMS, and so I may be missing the boat, but I just don't see what the problem here is supposed to be.