for a 13 year old, which

[Archaea]

work of Plato would make the most sense?

It's been so long, but which work would make sense to introduce his dialogue?

The 13 year old is interested when he found out Alexander the Great's mentor was Socrates, who is the hero of Plato's works.

Is it too early, or is there an introductory work that a young mind could grasp?

Would one start with the Apology or jump to Phaedo? The forms are important to understanding Plato but doesn't emphasize Socrates. Crito might actually be interesting in terms of civil disobedience discussions. What about Theaetetus discussing problems with knowledge? Too esoteric for a beginner?

What think ye oh men and ladies of the Guard? How would you introduce it to a budding classicist?

SIEQ, Pelagius and others?

Seattle what classical instruction did you provide to your earlier family and do you to your current kids?

I'm flying by the seat of my pants without any knowledge how to teach the stuff than to just read it.

[Archaea]

I've forgotten how fun the "dialogue of Plato is"

From Theaetetus:

"Soc. Then wisdom and knowledge are the same?

Theaet. Yes.

Soc. Herein lies the difficulty which I can never solve to my satisfaction-What is knowledge? Can we answer that question? What say you? which of us will speak first? whoever misses shall sit down, as at a game of ball, and shall be donkey, as the boys say; he who lasts out his competitors in the game without missing, shall be our king, and shall have the right of putting to us any questions which he pleases. .. Why is there no reply? I hope, Theodorus, that I am not betrayed into rudeness by my love of conversation? I only want to make us talk and be friendly and sociable.

Theod. The reverse of rudeness, Socrates: but I would rather that you would ask one of the young fellows; for the truth is, that I am unused to your game of question and answer, and I am too old to learn; the young will be more suitable, and they will improve more than I shall, for youth is always able to improve. And so having made a beginning with Theaetetus, I would advise you to go on with him and not let him off.

Soc. Do you hear, Theaetetus, what Theodorus says? The philosopher, whom you would not like to disobey, and whose word ought to be a command to a young man, bids me interrogate you. Take courage, then, and nobly say what you think that knowledge is.

Theaet. Well, Socrates, I will answer as you and he bid me; and if make a mistake, you will doubtless correct me."

and again:

"Soc. Well, my art of midwifery is in most respects like theirs; but differs, in that I attend men and not women; and look after their souls when they are in labour, and not after their bodies: and the triumph of my art is in thoroughly examining whether the thought which the mind of the young man brings forth is a false idol or a noble and true birth. And like the mid-wives, I am barren, and the reproach which is often made against me, that I ask questions of others and have not the wit to answer them myself, is very just-the reason is, that the god compels-me to be a midwife, but does not allow me to bring forth. And therefore I am not myself at all wise, nor have I anything to show which is the invention or birth of my own soul, but those who converse with me profit. Some of them appear dull enough at first, but afterwards, as our acquaintance ripens, if the god is gracious to them, they all make astonishing progress; and this in the opinion of others as well as in their own. It is quite dear that they never learned anything from me; the many fine discoveries to which they cling are of their own making. But to me and the god they owe their delivery. And the proof of my words is, that many of them in their ignorance, either in their self-conceit despising me, or falling under the influence of others, have gone away too soon; and have not only lost the children of whom I had previously delivered them by an ill bringing up, but have stifled whatever else they had in them by evil communications, being fonder of lies and shams than of the truth; and they have at last ended by seeing themselves, as others see them, to be great fools. Aristeides, the son of Lysimachus, is one of them, and there are many others. The truants often return to me, and beg that I would consort with them again-they are ready to go to me on their knees and then, if my familiar allows, which is not always the case, I receive them, and they begin to grow again. Dire are the pangs which my art is able to arouse and to allay in those who consort with me, just like the pangs of women in childbirth; night and day they are full of perplexity and travail which is even worse than that of the women. So much for them. And there are -others, Theaetetus, who come to me apparently having nothing in them; and as I know that they have no need of my art, I coax them into marrying some one, and by the grace of God I can generally tell who is likely to do them good. Many of them I have given away to Prodicus, and many to other inspired sages. I tell you this long story, friend Theaetetus, because I suspect, as indeed you seem to think yourself, that you are in labour-great with some conception. Come then to me, who am a midwife's son and myself a midwife, and do your best to answer the questions which I will ask you. And if I abstract and expose your first-born, because I discover upon inspection that the conception which you have formed is a vain shadow, do not quarrel with me on that account, as the manner of women is when their first children are taken from them. For I have actually known some who were ready to bite me when I deprived them of a darling folly; they did not perceive that I acted from good will, not knowing that no god is the enemy of man-that was not within the range of their ideas; neither am I their enemy in all this, but it would be wrong for me to admit falsehood, or to stifle the truth. Once more, then, Theaetetus, I repeat my old question, "What is knowledge?"-and do not say that you cannot tell; but quit yourself like a man, and by the help of God you will be able to tell.

Theaet. At any rate, Socrates, after such an exhortation I should be ashamed of not trying to do my best. Now he who knows perceives what he knows, and, as far as I can see at present, knowledge is perception.

Soc. Bravely said, boy; that is the way in which you should express your opinion. And now, let us examine together this conception of yours, and see whether it is a true birth or a mere, wind-egg:-You say that knowledge is perception?

Theaet. Yes.

Soc. Well, you have delivered yourself of a very important doctrine about knowledge; it is indeed the opinion of Protagoras, who has another way of expressing it, Man, he says, is the measure of all things, of the existence of things that are, and of the non-existence of things that are not:-You have read him? "

Oh crap, I have a brief due tomorrow.

[Surfah]

If my kid is reading the stats off the back of baseball cards at age 13 I'd be happy.

[bluegoose]

Originally Posted by surfah33

If my kid is reading the stats off the back of baseball cards at age 13 I'd be happy.

....Or the nutrition label on the cereal box instead of just the word search on the back.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by surfah33

If my kid is reading the stats off the back of baseball cards at age 13 I'd be happy.

In this I am proud, my son dislikes baseball. He's a football, soccer and basketball kid.

Baseball?

[BarbaraGordon]

I'm just thrilled to have mine make it through Green Eggs and Ham.

Hey, Arch, on your question, as far as logical approach to the writings, I wouldn't bother trying to reinvent the wheel. I'd check a few textbook tables of contents and see in what order the material is usually addressed.

For age-specific recommendations (as far as commentary, background etc.), I'd call the young adult librarian at your public library. She'll get back to you the next day with some thoughts.

If it were me buying for an adolescent, I'd find an intro to Socrates sort of guide that will have an overview plus several of the important excerpts, but not be so much as to overwhelm or bore.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I'm just thrilled to have mine make it through Green Eggs and Ham.

Hey, Arch, on your question, as far as logical approach to the writings, I wouldn't bother trying to reinvent the wheel. I'd check a few textbook tables of contents and see in what order the material is usually addressed.

For age-specific recommendations (as far as commentary, background etc.), I'd call the young adult librarian at your public library. She'll get back to you the next day with some thoughts.

If it were me buying for an adolescent, I'd find an intro to Socrates sort of guide that will have an overview plus several of the important excerpts, but not be so much as to overwhelm or bore.

You'd really water it down that much? Perhaps. Plato isn't that tough though. But that may be good advice. He's loving the Greek histories, such as on Thermopylae and the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides. I thought he might be able to begin to address his thinking processes through Plato. He'll be learning Geometry soon, so that together with logic, his reasoning should improve.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You'd really water it down that much? Perhaps. Plato isn't that tough though. But that may be good advice. He's loving the Greek histories, such as on Thermopylae and the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides. I thought he might be able to begin to address his thinking processes through Plato. He'll be learning Geometry soon, so that together with logic, his reasoning should improve.

Arch, keep in mind, I have a seven-year-old. I have no idea what a 13-year-old is ready for!

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Arch, keep in mind, I have a seven-year-old. I have no idea what a 13-year-old is ready for!

Well, in my mind, the US education system abandons youth in the sixth, seventh and eighth grades, only to start teaching again in the ninth.

In our household as I'm certain the more succesful parents do even more, we expect the kids to do as much as possible, including Church. And amazingly, they are able to think and to absorb.

In just one year, my 13 year old has been transformed from youth reader to a young adult reading advanced works. His thought processes are still immature; that's why I'm emphasizing algebra and geometry, as well as some logic.

Their minds are like veritable sponges. And they rise to the occasion.

As I am by instinct a nonnatural writer, I find it harder to instruct them in good writing. And sometimes I cheat. After coaxing and giving hints in writing, I have on very rare occasion just rewritten the damn project to that they will stop bugging me. Last year, I inadvertently used some terminology in rewriting one little project that apparently was more advanced than the age group. It stood out like a sore thumb, so he got a zero on it. Boy was he upset. So he was informed he should ask dad to correct grammar and not to ask for substantive advice. So he overcame that and has increased his vocabulary through sheer force of will and work.

The differences at this age between the average kid who has to be forced to attend school and those who work is amazing. In our little church group, all of the kids are amazing students, because they try. They study music, sports, religion, charity, sciences, and many of the siblings are attending BYU, Utah, Harvard, Yale and in some instances UNLV. Obviously, some conditions will slow the learning process but most early teens are hungry for knowledge, we're just too lazy to give it to them. At least that's my experience. The social scene tends to slow the quest for knowledge.

[RockyBalboa]

Okay so he's smart, but does he have the social skills of a home-schooled kid?