American Tax System - Freedom or Tyranny?

[minn_stat]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/228/

I want to know how those of you with a more liberal bent feel about the general idea of nearly 50% of Americans voting to elect representatives who promise to raise taxes on others, while contributing nothing to tax coffers themselves.

Of course, this is somewhat mitigated by the politicians often handing the money back to the rich (Example 1A being the bailout) anyways, so the end result is primarily just more power for the politicians.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by minn_stat

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/228/

I want to know how those of you with a more liberal bent feel about the general idea of nearly 50% of Americans voting to elect representatives who promise to raise taxes on others, while contributing nothing to tax coffers themselves.

I want to correct a couple of misrepresentations before somebody takes you on on.

First, according to your source it's not "nearly fifty percent" that don't pay taxes. It's forty percent. Let the number speak for itself.

Second, it's a little silly to suggest that that entire 40% is voting Democrat (or at least I assume that that's what you must mean when you say that this population votes for "representatives who promise to raise taxes on others, but contribute nothing.") In 2004, 36% of voters with incomes under 15k voted Bush, and Bush's share increased with each successive income bracket. (Obviously, the population that turned out to vote is not statistically representative of the population as a whole; so my statement is not intended to suggest that 36% of your group votes Republican, but only to demonstrate that the group is not wholly comprised of Democratic voters.)

Third, there's an extent to which you portray these 40% of Americans as lowlifes who contribute nothing but are trying to create a system in which they can live as some kind of parasite off of productive society. But the 40% that you cite includes -- in addition to the parasites -- students, mothers, and all the others who pay no income taxes because they choose to have no income. It also includes the profoundly handicapped who physically cannot work, but who certainly aren't voting to increase taxes on anybody -- they're not voting at all. I don't know have an exact stat on how many Americans fall into these categories, but the population surely isn't insignificant. It's estimated that homemakers alone make up 30-40% of the adult female population.

[minn_stat]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I want to correct a couple of misrepresentations before somebody takes you on on.

First, according to your source it's not "nearly fifty percent" that don't pay taxes. It's forty percent. Let the number speak for itself.

Second, it's a little silly to suggest that that entire 40% is voting Democrat (or at least I assume that that's what you must mean when you say that this population votes for "representatives who promise to raise taxes on others, but contribute nothing.") In 2004, 36% of voters with incomes under 15k voted Bush, and Bush's share increased with each successive income bracket. (Obviously, the population that turned out to vote is not statistically representative of the population as a whole; so my statement is not intended to suggest that 36% of your group votes Republican, but only to demonstrate that the group is not wholly comprised of Democratic voters.)

Third, there's an extent to which you portray these 40% of Americans as lowlifes who contribute nothing but are trying to create a system in which they can live as some kind of parasite off of productive society. But the 40% that you cite includes -- in addition to the parasites -- students, mothers, and all the others who pay no income taxes because they choose to have no income. It also includes the profoundly handicapped who physically cannot work, but who certainly aren't voting to increase taxes on anybody -- they're not voting at all. I don't know have an exact stat on how many Americans fall into these categories, but the population surely isn't insignificant. It's estimated that homemakers alone make up 30-40% of the adult female population.

You are correct, Barbara, I was a bit sloppy. The reference document was based on quintiles, and therefore, the conclusion that can be derived from it in this regard is the 40% number, and that the break point is somewhere between 40% and 60%. I have seen in the recent past a more detailed breakout, and if I remember it correctly, it was somewhere between 45 and 49%. I might be able to find it tomorrow.

And in regards to the idea that I was suggesting they are all voting for Democrats, no, that wasn't my intent. It is more along the lines that the cumulative effect of our system over time has created this effect, and that includes both Democrat and Republican-controlled legislative and executive bodies. I think most all of those on this board with a more conservative bent would find this troubling, and was wondering if those who are more liberal would concur.

And you are right that those who don't pay taxes come from a broad spectrum of Americans.

Sorry about being a bit sloppy in my original post. I woke up in the wee morning hours and couldn't get back to sleep, so I decided to post a bit. Wasn't as careful as perhaps I should have been.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by minn_stat

You are correct, Barbara.

I like you already.

[minn_stat]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I like you already.

Are you always this easy to please?

Let me score more points, then. I did watch some of the video from your pastor on the election, and I wholeheartedly agree. I'm no fan of Obama, but last week, my 11 year old daughter asked if we could move to Canada if Obama wins. I told her that if he wins, he is my president, and deserves my respect, even though I may strongly disagree with much of what he does.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by minn_stat

Are you always this easy to please?

Let me score more points, then. I did watch some of the video from your pastor on the election, and I wholeheartedly agree. I'm no fan of Obama, but last week, my 11 year old daughter asked if we could move to Canada if Obama wins. I told her that if he wins, he is my president, and deserves my respect, even though I may strongly disagree with much of what he does.

Are you always this much of a kiss ass?

"Deserves your respect"? When has the opposition ever accorded the same to Republicans? Not likely.

A contrary position would be if people consciously disrespected him, we would rob him of some of his power to govern which is a good thing. It is exactly what happened to Bush in the last two years. So if we preemptively disrespect Obama, with truthful, non racist information, then we will be doing ourselves a service.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Are you always this much of a kiss ass?

"Deserves your respect"? When has the opposition ever accorded the same to Republicans? Not likely.

A contrary position would be if people consciously disrespected him, we would rob him of some of his power to govern which is a good thing. It is exactly what happened to Bush in the last two years. So if we preemptively disrespect Obama, with truthful, non racist information, then we will be doing ourselves a service.

Good point. that would be a much better answer for his 11 year old daughter.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Are you always this much of a kiss ass?

oh, now that's just too funny.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

A contrary position would be if people consciously disrespected him, we would rob him of some of his power to govern which is a good thing. It is exactly what happened to Bush in the last two years. So if we preemptively disrespect Obama, with truthful, non racist information, then we will be doing ourselves a service.

One can disagree with our leadership, or even engage in civil disobedience, without resorting to disrespect or dishonor. The respect and honor are owed the office, and by extension the person residing therein, but not necessarily the policies he espouses.

As far as "when has the opposition ever accorded the same," that's hardly his point. This was not a lesson about Republicans versus Democrats. This was a lesson about believers versus unbelievers. If the attitude and response of the believers toward government is the same as those of the unbelievers, then what's the point?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

One can disagree with our leadership, or even engage in civil disobedience, without resorting to disrespect or dishonor. The respect and honor are owed the office, and by extension the person residing therein, but not necessarily the policies he espouses.

As far as "when has the opposition ever accorded the same," that's hardly his point. This was not a lesson about Republicans versus Democrats. This was a lesson about believers versus unbelievers. If the attitude and response of the believers toward government is the same as those of the unbelievers, then what's the point?

Abbie Hoffman effectively operated in this fashion. If we wish to neuter the office of its power, we can disrespect it. I don't see the benefit in a powerful office of the President. I'd prefer to see an impotent office, from the perspective of my policy toward government.

I'm not certain I understand your definition of "believer", please elaborate what you mean by this.