Yet another reason our economy shouldn't be tied to the events in the Middle East

[Cali Coug]

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695222203,00.html

It blows my mind that we have done almost nothing to avoid this exact event since the oil crisis in the late 70's. This is the single best example of corruption and greed in the US government leading to a policy that is detrimental to the interests of the nation as a whole.

Is there an area of the world that would be WORSE than the Middle East for supplying the blood of our economy?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695222203,00.html

It blows my mind that we have done almost nothing to avoid this exact event since the oil crisis in the late 70's. This is the single best example of corruption and greed in the US government leading to a policy that is detrimental to the interests of the nation as a whole.

Is there an area of the world that would be WORSE than the Middle East for supplying the blood of our economy?

So you support drilling in Anwar and more drilling in the Gulf of Mexico right? :-)

I think it is inertia more than greed. If there were some other obvious alternative fuel source, someone would have already stepped into the void an provided it. Certainly we could put more money into the research, but I think it overstates it to believe that if only we would then we could extricate ourselves. I don't know if I believe that. Maybe there isn't ever going to be anything as cheap and abundant as petrol and when it runs out the world will change. Hopefully I'm wrong, but the new source isn't apparent.

Its like thinking that if only we would put more money into AIDS research we could have already had the cure. Maybe there isn't a cure.

P.S. Environmentalists should be tickled that gas prices are going up. This will mean more fuel efficient cars and more conservation. I'm not anxious for higher prices, but as I understand it they have been artificially low for decades.

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

So you support drilling in Anwar and more drilling in the Gulf of Mexico right? :-)

I think it is inertia more than greed. If there were some other obvious alternative fuel source, someone would have already stepped into the void an provided it.


P.S. Environmentalists should be tickled that gas prices are going up. This will mean more fuel efficient cars and more conservation. I'm not anxious for higher prices, but as I understand it they have been artificially low for decades.

Man, where have you been? The market forces behind oil (oil companies, car companies and now the corn ethanol lobby) have been using their leverage to push governmental policy for years into what it is now, which is petroleum based. They have stifled alternatives in favor the status quo (like for instance the electric car, increased minimum fuel efficiency standards, cellulosic ethanol, etc).

The reason Brazil is oil independent is that they use cellulosic ethanol, which can be derived from many different types of plant including agricultural waste. Cars have to be built specially to use the fuel, but many in this country already are because the gov't gives alternative fuel credits to the car companies that make them. A simple policy change would help our situation immensely.

I share your belief in markets, but realize that this is not a market that is working with transparency and an even playing field, which makes it an imperfect market that operates against our national interest. A few policy changes ought to make this area operate as a market should, and with conservation is our only hope of keeping oil prices under control.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Detroitdad

Man, where have you been? The market forces behind oil (oil companies, car companies and now the corn ethanol lobby) have been using their leverage to push governmental policy for years into what it is now, which is petroleum based. They have stifled alternatives in favor the status quo (like for instance the electric car, increased minimum fuel efficiency standards, cellulosic ethanol, etc).

The reason Brazil is oil independent is that they use cellulosic ethanol, which can be derived from many different types of plant including agricultural waste. Cars have to be built specially to use the fuel, but many in this country already are because the gov't gives alternative fuel credits to the car companies that make them. A simple policy change would help our situation immensely.

I share your belief in markets, but realize that this is not a market that is working with transparency and an even playing field, which makes it an imperfect market that operates against our national interest. A few policy changes ought to make this area operate as a market should, and with conservation is our only hope of keeping oil prices under control.

Perhaps I am naive. Can you educate me on what government has been doing to stifle aternative fuel sources?

[MikeWaters]

The average gas mileage of cars in the United States is the same as Model T Ford's MPG.

I'm ok with being dependent on the Middle East. It's poor and dumb folks dying.

Right?

The truth is most Americans DON"T CARE if we pay for oil with our blood. That's the sad fact. They will just SUBURBANS over other people's kids.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The average gas mileage of cars in the United States is the same as Model T Ford's MPG.

I'm ok with being dependent on the Middle East. It's poor and dumb folks dying.

Right?

The truth is most Americans DON"T CARE if we pay for oil with our blood. That's the sad fact. They will just SUBURBANS over other people's kids.

I don't get the connection. Gas is much more expensive now than it was before the war and the Saudis love selling it to us while financing al qaida at the same time. War was not necessary for the free flow of oil. I think Bush really believes in the good vs. evil thing as well as the macho desire to clean out Saddam Hussein who his dad allowed to remain in power, thus finishing what his dad didn't.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

High prices may be the only thing that can get us to look elsewhere for energy.

If so, then maybe we can all agreed that this is a good thing. It is exactly because oil is so relatively cheap that we have not in earnest to this point. The only thing, IMO, that will bring about alternative fuel sources is the market demanding them. Government won't ever be the answer there, though certainly they can influence market forces by incentivizing certain things.

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I think there are lots of alternatives. It is a simple matter of making it a national priority to develop them. Brazil is 100% oil independent now, the result of a decision they made after the last serious oil crisis that their economy could not be tied to the middle east directly.

We have not pursued a lot of the oil alternatives in large part due to the significant lobbying power held by the auto and oil industries. High prices may be the only thing that can get us to look elsewhere for energy.

Don't forget the corn ethanol lobby which has choked off innovation and does little to reduce oil consumption, but a lot to drive up inflation in food prices.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I think there are lots of alternatives. It is a simple matter of making it a national priority to develop them. Brazil is 100% oil independent now, the result of a decision they made after the last serious oil crisis that their economy could not be tied to the middle east directly.

We have not pursued a lot of the oil alternatives in large part due to the significant lobbying power held by the auto and oil industries. High prices may be the only thing that can get us to look elsewhere for energy.

how is Brazil 100% oil independent? Do their cars all run on something other than petroleum products? Or do you mean they produce all their own? If the latter, it's meaningless because as long as they use oil whether their own production or not, it all goes into the world price for oil and the middle east still benefits from the demand. Now if a country like Brazil were to suddenly shun oil completely no matter where it came from, it would actually have an impact. In other words, as long as the US has a demand for oil, the middle east will be important in world politics. If they shut off supply then it still affects us all the same even if we get all of ours domestically. We have to move completely away from oil to something else.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by BlueK

how is Brazil 100% oil independent? Do their cars all run on something other than petroleum products? Or do you mean they produce all their own? If the latter, it's meaningless because as long as they use oil whether their own production or not, it all goes into the world price for oil and the middle east still benefits from the demand. Now if a country like Brazil were to suddenly shun oil completely no matter where it came from, it would actually have an impact. In other words, as long as the US has a demand for oil, the middle east will be important in world politics. If they shut off supply then it still affects us all the same even if we get all of ours domestically. We have to move completely away from oil to something else.

brazil is on ethanol made from sugarcane