Big plot hole/logical absurdity in Nephi-Laban story

[SeattleUte]

"12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands . .

. . .

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword."

Okay, so "the spirit" told Nephi to kill Laban. This was no mere prompting. "The spirit" had a "voice" that said, "Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands."

I understand a deistic God wholly disciplined in his refusal to intervene in the affairs of men (when I say men I mean women too), relying instead on men themselves to carry out the Providential plan (even as God, from his far removed perch, has a kind of omniscient confidence that things will work out fine in the end).

I understand a Gnostic God, limited and bound by natural laws in his ability to intervene in the affairs of men, but who, like a cunning lawyer, will negotiate those laws as best he can, to try indirectly to induce a desired result or reach a compromise with the Adversary.

I understand an omnipotent God, fully unfettered and unrestrained in his penchant to direct the affairs of men to achieve his desired ends; for example, parting the Red Sea and burying Pharoah's forces in an avalanche of water.

I assume the God who got Laban drunk and then sent a spirit to tell Nephi to behead drunken Laban with his own sword was operating on the third model. Why not just appear before before Laban--God himself or through an angel or a spirit--and command Laban to give up the plates or else (a la parting the Red Sea)? I bet he would have given them up. Getting Laban drunk and then telling Nephi he better do the dirty business of beheading Laban or else seems to me convoluted and lacking the directness and artistry and drama of parting the Red Sea and drowning Pharaoh's army. It also involves a gratuitous killing. Laban had his flaws, but he was not Stalin.

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Why not just appear before before Laban--God himself or through an angel or a spirit--and command Laban to give up the plates or else (a la parting the Red Sea)?

Sure Laban may have obeyed his visitor and given up the plates, but who is to say an hour later he wouldn't be filled with rage and sent his battalion after Lehi's family.

Similarly, an angel appeared to Laman and Lemuel and told them to stop beating Nephi. They obeyed, but only temporarily. Despite their many spiritual experiences, they kept lapsing into evil.

[SoonerCoug]

I'm a deist. I believe in a completely non-inverventionalist, clockmaker God. I also believe in people who hear voices. And I believe that some people are inspired by God's influence. I also believe that people sometimes confuse voices in their heads with God's influence.

I think Nephi killing Laban was an example of hearing voices and thinking it was God, or killing a man and then claiming to have heard voices after the fact.

But I don't think Nephi would have won in trial had he gone with the insanity defense.

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I'm a deist. I believe in a completely non-inverventionalist, clockmaker God. I also believe in people who hear voices. And I believe that some people are inspired by God's influence. I also believe that people sometimes confuse voices in their heads with God's influence.

Whoah whoah whoah. Completely non-interventionist? No miracles? No inspiration? No revelation? No guidance? Wow.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Whoah whoah whoah. Completely non-interventionist? No miracles? No inspiration? No revelation? No guidance? Wow.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I believe God's influence insires people, and that influence could be considered the vehicle for inspiration, revelation, guidance, and "miracles."

I just don't believe that god inspires people to chop each other's heads off. I know that must disappoint you.

And I don't believe God actively intervenes.

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

Don't put words in my mouth.

I believe God's influence insires people, and that influence could be considered the vehicle for inspiration, revelation, guidance, and "miracles."

I just don't believe that god inspires people to chop each other's heads off. I know that must disappoint you.

And I don't believe God actively intervenes.

Sorry, I didn't intend to put words into your mouth. I guess I was unclear on what "strictly non-interventionist" meant.

So you believe in divine inspiration and guidance. But you don't believe in direct intervention miracles, like healing the sick or parting the Red Sea or protection from harm?

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Sorry, I didn't intend to put words into your mouth. I guess I was unclear on what "strictly non-interventionist" meant.

So you believe in divine inspiration and guidance. But you don't believe in direct intervention miracles, like healing the sick or parting the Red Sea or protection from harm?

I think most miracles are just folklore. But I also believe that inspiration can allow for things like "healing the sick" in the sense that the body and "soul" (mind) are linked and being hopeful for a recovery may actually increase the chances of recovery.

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I think most miracles are just folklore. But I also believe that inspiration can allow for things like "healing the sick" in the sense that the body and "soul" are linked and being hopeful for a recovery may actually increase the chances of recovery.

Well okay then. Interesting perspective.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Adam

If you add the words "in the 21st century" to the end of the above sentence, I would agree with it.

But I think one of the major flaws in scriptural analysis is looking at barbaric times through modern lenses. No person born before 1700 (and many born after) would even pause at the Nephi Laban story.

Gandhi only works against the British--the Mongols would have just killed him, all his family, all his followers and all those from his hometown and moved on with governing India. It is hard to realize how brutal the world has always been.

You could further qualify it by saying not in the 21st century in some parts of the world. Recall Hassad of Syria's reaction to he atte4mpt to overthrow him a few decades ago: he killed the plotters, there families and then he razed their towns and removed all refernce to them from the maps. This is within most of our lifetimes and from the same culture in which the laban story is set.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

"12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands . .

. . .

18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword."

Okay, so "the spirit" told Nephi to kill Laban. This was no mere prompting. "The spirit" had a "voice" that said, "Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands."

I understand a deistic God wholly disciplined in his refusal to intervene in the affairs of men (when I say men I mean women too), relying instead on men themselves to carry out the Providential plan (even as God, from his far removed perch, has a kind of omniscient confidence that things will work out fine in the end).

I understand a Gnostic God, limited and bound by natural laws in his ability to intervene in the affairs of men, but who, like a cunning lawyer, will negotiate those laws as best he can, to try indirectly to induce a desired result or reach a compromise with the Adversary.

I understand an omnipotent God, fully unfettered and unrestrained in his penchant to direct the affairs of men to achieve his desired ends; for example, parting the Red Sea and burying Pharoah's forces in an avalanche of water.

I assume the God who got Laban drunk and then sent a spirit to tell Nephi to behead drunken Laban with his own sword was operating on the third model. Why not just appear before before Laban--God himself or through an angel or a spirit--and command Laban to give up the plates or else (a la parting the Red Sea)? I bet he would have given them up. Getting Laban drunk and then telling Nephi he better do the dirty business of beheading Laban or else seems to me convoluted and lacking the directness and artistry and drama of parting the Red Sea and drowning Pharaoh's army. It also involves a gratuitous killing. Laban had his flaws, but he was not Stalin.

No doubt. Or, couldn't God have made the plates disappear from among Laban's possessions and magically reappear at Nephi's house? Why the long, drawn-out process?

On a more practical note, wouldn't it be nearly impossible to cut someone's head clean off with a sword if holding that person by the hair? Not a lot of room to swing the sword. So, I guess Nephi had to do some hacking/sawing. Wouldn't that get blood all over the place - on Laban's clothes, on Nephi's arms, etc.? It'd be hard to pull off the disguise trick drenched in blood.