I'm surprised more people didn't

[Venkman]

pick the loss of Lavell as one of the main reasons for BYU football's decline in Sizzle's poll. Maybe it's because of the 2000 season? I agree it wasn't his finest hour, but he did show the willingness to change his offense up a bit at the end there and I think we would've still had a great team in 2001 if he was at the helm. And there is NO WAY we would've sucked as bad as we did in 02 and 03 under Lavell.

College football is filled with countless examples of great programs (Alabama, USC, Washington, Notre Dame, etc.)losing their way for years and years after a legendary coach retires. Some get it back, some don't.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Venkman

pick the loss of Lavell as one of the main reasons for BYU football's decline in Sizzle's poll. Maybe it's because of the 2000 season? I agree it wasn't his finest hour, but he did show the willingness to change his offense up a bit at the end there and I think we would've still had a great team in 2001 if he was at the helm. And there is NO WAY we would've sucked as bad as we did in 02 and 03 under Lavell.

College football is filled with countless examples of great programs (Alabama, USC, Washington, Notre Dame, etc.)losing their way for years and years after a legendary coach retires. Some get it back, some don't.

Willingness?

Being down to your last man had an awful lot to do with it, I thought.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by All-American

Willingness?

Being down to your last man had an awful lot to do with it, I thought.

Ok, that's a fair point. What about the rest of it. Do you think losing Lavell was a major factor in the decline of BYU football?

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Venkman

Ok, that's a fair point. What about the rest of it. Do you think losing Lavell was a major factor in the decline of BYU football?

In the sence that the dropoff from LaVell to Crowton was a fairly bad experience for BYU, then yeah, it was a major factor.

I think that the major reason BYU had such a drop off is because more emphasis is placed on a faux spirituality than in actual results. Give me a few hours and a lot of angry, bitter sentiments that need to be vented somehow and I'll tell you exactly how I feel on the matter.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by All-American

In the sence that the dropoff from LaVell to Crowton was a fairly bad experience for BYU, then yeah, it was a major factor.

Which is basically what I'm saying. Not that it's the only factor, but that it was a major factor.

Originally Posted by All-American

I think that the major reason BYU had such a drop off is because more emphasis is placed on a faux spirituality than in actual results. Give me a few hours and a lot of angry, bitter sentiments that need to be vented somehow and I'll tell you exactly how I feel on the matter.

I don't know if that's a reason for the decline, since this is more of a Bronco thing, unless your talking more HC enforcement issues. I will say however, that I don't subscribe to the "the more righteous you are, the more the Lord will bless you on the football field" theory. All the BOM talk aside, I don't think Bronco does either. I think Bronco is concerned primarily with getting the best players he can get that won't be kicked out of school, Mormon or not.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Venkman

Which is basically what I'm saying. Not that it's the only factor, but that it was a major factor.



I don't know if that's a reason for the decline, since this is more of a Bronco thing, unless your talking more HC enforcement issues. I will say however, that I don't subscribe to the "the more righteous you are, the more the Lord will bless you on the football field" theory. All the BOM talk aside, I don't think Bronco does either. I think Bronco is concerned primarily with getting the best players he can get that won't be kicked out of school, Mormon or not.

All right, here goes.

BYU borders on religious fanaticism. The honor code is just one facet of this issue-- the church influences everything at BYU. Prayers in class, LDS wards serving as the prime social unit, church activities at least three of every seven days, religion classes, religious-themed paintings and sayings around every corner, campaigns organized by the student body officers to read the Book of Mormon, and the list goes on and on. The influence of the church is as omnipresent as it is overkill.

I maintain that this zeal is not only detrimental to other "secular" pursuits-- which include athletics, but also includes other academic interests-- it is detrimental to spiritual growth. Hugh Nibley's speech "Zeal Without Knowledge" describes the problem most succinctly. A few quotes:

Originally Posted by Hugh Nibley

"The quality in which the Saints have always excelled is zeal. Zeal is the engine that drives the whole vehicle, without it we would get nowhere. But without clutch, throttle, brakes, and steering wheel, our mighty engine becomes an instrument of destruction, and the more powerful the motor, the more disastrous the inevitable crack-up if the proper knowledge is lacking. There is a natural tendency to let the mighty motor carry us along, to give it its head, open up and see what it can do. We see this in our society today."

Originally Posted by Hugh Nibley

"Another time [Joseph Smith] warned the sisters against being 'subject to overmuch zeal, which must ever prove dangerous, and cause them to be rigid in a religious capacity.' Zeal makes us loyal and unflinching, but God wants more than that. In the same breath, the Prophet said that the people 'were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves.' They must do their own thinking and discipline their minds. If not, that will happen again which happened in Kirtland: 'Many, having a zeal not according to knowledge,' said the Prophet, '...have, no doubt, in the heat of enthusiasm, taught and said many things which are derogatory to the genuine character and principles of the Church.'"

Originally Posted by Hugh Nibley

"The Prophet makes no distinction between things of the spirit and things of the intellect. Some years ago, when it was pointed out that BYU graduates were the lowest in the nation in all categories of the graduate record examination, the institution characteristically met the challenge by abolishing the examination. It was done on the grounds that the test did not sufficiently measure our unique 'spirituality.' We talked extensively about 'the education of the whole man,' and deplored that educational imbalance that comes when students' heads are merely stuffed with facts — as if there was any danger of that here! But actually, serious imbalance is impossible if one plays the game honestly: true zeal feeds on knowledge, true knowledge cannot exist without zeal. Both are 'spiritual' qualities."

Originally Posted by Hugh Nibley

"It actually happens at the BYU, and that not rarely, that students come to a teacher, usually at the beginning of a term, with the sincere request that he refrain from teaching them anything new. They have no desire, they explain, to hear what they do not know already! I cannot imagine that happening at any other school, but maybe it does. Unless we go on to other new things, we are stifling our powers."

Probably more information than you care to read, but they demonstrate the point. We are so wrapped up in being a "spiritual" place that we neglect our other responsibilities. BYU is hyperactively "spiritual" to the extent that those who are not doing what others feel they ought to be doing in maintaining their spiritual growth are alienated and ostracized. Many simply don't see what the purpose of athletics is at "The Lord's University."

We will have our spirituality FIRST, and then comes anything else. I feel this to be a heinous wrongdoing. Not only is "anything else" of great importance, but our "spirituality" is, speaking as charitably as I can, a crockery. In our efforts to keep ALL of the commandments, our attention turns first to the ones that are easiest to notice-- what we wear, what we eat, what we say, and keeping the sabbath. Ironically, these are the EXACT same things Jesus had so many issues with when dealing with the Pharisees. Like the Pharisees, our focus on these important, but ultimately LESS important issues distract us from the REALLY important things: Love God, Love your Neighbor, and beat the Utes.

Our zeal has close to zero positive effect on our own spirituality, but it has a noticable negative effect on those around us. This is most noticable in the recruiting program. This last year, exactly ONE person who was not a member of the church joined the team. ONE. Those who feel this is not a problem need to talk to Curtis Brown, Brian McDonald-Ashford, Ty Detmer, and the scores of others who were introduced to the church while at the BYU. But aside from recruiting members of the team OR of the church, orthodoxy has a terrible tendency to alienate those who don't subscribe to every jot and tittle thereof; and much of the ideology of church members isn't exactly 100% correct. The result is a load of oppression for those who don't follow mainstream thought.

But we are concerned with our image here! How can we reduce our standards, knowing that the eyes of the world are upon our little university on a hill? I don't understand how nobody can realize that a 10-2 team comprised of good people will do more for the church's image than a 6-6 team of zealots. The gospel is a recipe for peace and prosperity IN THIS LIFE, as well as the life to come. We're too busy making sure our shorts reach knee length to realize that the gospel will complement, not detract, from worthy worldy pursuits.

Anybody I haven't offended yet?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Amen, brother. Amen.

Been a while since I've seen the "zeal" quotes. Thanks.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by All-American

All right, here goes.

BYU borders on religious fanaticism. The honor code is just one facet of this issue-- the church influences everything at BYU. Prayers in class, LDS wards serving as the prime social unit, church activities at least three of every seven days, religion classes, religious-themed paintings and sayings around every corner, campaigns organized by the student body officers to read the Book of Mormon, and the list goes on and on. The influence of the church is as omnipresent as it is overkill.

I maintain that this zeal is not only detrimental to other "secular" pursuits-- which include athletics, but also includes other academic interests-- it is detrimental to spiritual growth. Hugh Nibley's speech "Zeal Without Knowledge" describes the problem most succinctly. A few quotes:

Probably more information than you care to read, but they demonstrate the point. We are so wrapped up in being a "spiritual" place that we neglect our other responsibilities. BYU is hyperactively "spiritual" to the extent that those who are not doing what others feel they ought to be doing in maintaining their spiritual growth are alienated and ostracized. Many simply don't see what the purpose of athletics is at "The Lord's University."

We will have our spirituality FIRST, and then comes anything else. I feel this to be a heinous wrongdoing. Not only is "anything else" of great importance, but our "spirituality" is, speaking as charitably as I can, a crockery. In our efforts to keep ALL of the commandments, our attention turns first to the ones that are easiest to notice-- what we wear, what we eat, what we say, and keeping the sabbath. Ironically, these are the EXACT same things Jesus had so many issues with when dealing with the Pharisees. Like the Pharisees, our focus on these important, but ultimately LESS important issues distract us from the REALLY important things: Love God, Love your Neighbor, and beat the Utes.

Our zeal has close to zero positive effect on our own spirituality, but it has a noticable negative effect on those around us. This is most noticable in the recruiting program. This last year, exactly ONE person who was not a member of the church joined the team. ONE. Those who feel this is not a problem need to talk to Curtis Brown, Brian McDonald-Ashford, Ty Detmer, and the scores of others who were introduced to the church while at the BYU. But aside from recruiting members of the team OR of the church, orthodoxy has a terrible tendency to alienate those who don't subscribe to every jot and tittle thereof; and much of the ideology of church members isn't exactly 100% correct. The result is a load of oppression for those who don't follow mainstream thought.

But we are concerned with our image here! How can we reduce our standards, knowing that the eyes of the world are upon our little university on a hill? I don't understand how nobody can realize that a 10-2 team comprised of good people will do more for the church's image than a 6-6 team of zealots. The gospel is a recipe for peace and prosperity IN THIS LIFE, as well as the life to come. We're too busy making sure our shorts reach knee length to realize that the gospel will complement, not detract, from worthy worldy pursuits.

Anybody I haven't offended yet?

Wow, that was quite a rant! Hey, I agree with you as to the climate at BYU. I do disagree somewhat when it comes to athletics. Maybe it's different with certain parts of the admin, but I really don't think Bronco's just looking for a bunch of zealots. He actively recruits non-mormon kids and for 07 has improved with four non-LDS recruits (a number I think will even grow the next year if we have a good season).

I don't think the majority of fans want a 6-6 team full of zealots either. They want the 10-2 (or 9-3 or 8-4) team with good athletes and good kids - kids that may screw up from time to time, but not the kids that will get a 17 year old girl drunk, wait til she passes out and then take turns having sex with her. If those are the type of recruits we need to be 10-2 then I'll pass, but I don't believe that's what is required.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Venkman

Wow, that was quite a rant! Hey, I agree with you as to the climate at BYU. I do disagree somewhat when it comes to athletics. Maybe it's different with certain parts of the admin, but I really don't think Bronco's just looking for a bunch of zealots. He actively recruits non-mormon kids and for 07 has improved with four non-LDS recruits (a number I think will even grow the next year if we have a good season).

I don't think the majority of fans want a 6-6 team full of zealots either. They want the 10-2 (or 9-3 or 8-4) team with good athletes and good kids - kids that may screw up from time to time, but not the kids that will get a 17 year old girl drunk, wait til she passes out and then take turns having sex with her. If those are the type of recruits we need to be 10-2 then I'll pass, but I don't believe that's what is required.

I'm not saying it's Bronco's fault. I'm saying it's the fault of the school Bronco's recruits have to go to. Recruits don't want to go to BYU, and our response is that we didn't want them anyway if they're not spiritual enough to go here.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by All-American

I'm not saying it's Bronco's fault. I'm saying it's the fault of the school Bronco's recruits have to go to. Recruits don't want to go to BYU, and our response is that we didn't want them anyway if they're not spiritual enough to go here.

Yes, there's alot of non-LDS kids who want nothing to do with BYU (probably even some LDS kids), but like I said we had one non-LDS recruit in 06 and so far we have four non-LDS commits in 07. Have non-LDS kids ever wanted to come to BYU? No way. But plenty of non-LDS football players have wanted to play for BYU. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying that despite the increased zealotry at BYU, when it comes to football, you can get some of those non-LDS recruits back if you have a good program.