Big 3 bailout?

[Venkman]

I know many folks are pretty cavalier about the prospect of America losing it's auto industry. This guy makes a pretty compelling case for a bailout and for the need to have a U.S. auto industry.

Personally, I'm for it. Yes, management has been incompetent in many cases, unions are overpaid, quality has sucked, but GM and Ford are beginning to do things right, and if they can just make it through the next year or so, I believe they can make it. It's worth a shot, IMO.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/e...ure/index.html

[BarbaraGordon]

Not me. No way. Crappy overpriced cars. They got what was coming to them, due to (among other things) their complete and utter failure to prepare for rising gasoline costs, relying almost wholly on SUV sales to stay afloat.

I much prefer the part of Romney's proposal that emphasizes transitioning Detroit in to the capital of America's energy sector. That seems much more viable to me.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Not me. No way. Crappy overpriced cars. They got what was coming to them, due to (among other things) their complete and utter failure to prepare for rising gasoline costs, relying almost wholly on SUV sales to stay afloat.

I much prefer the part of Romney's proposal that emphasizes transitioning Detroit in to the capital of America's energy sector. That seems much more viable to me.

boy you have bought the japanese thought hook line and sinker. GM, Ford and Chrylser make a lot of really great cars. The new cobalt is nice and gets like 35 mpg. I have a 3 year old Mercury Mariner that would go 200k miles if we werent going to trade in for a minivan. Not to mention my 02 saturn that has 100k miles on it and will have very little upkeep.

[TripletDaddy]

It is interesting to read the shift on both boards.

A month or two ago, maybe more, lots of people clamoring to simply "let the market work it out."

Now that it is evident that this thing is a cluster-f of epic proportions, people are finally coming around to realizing that which some of us already knew....that there are times when government intervention is absolutely the right thing to do and that bailing out idiots, despite their stupid behavior, is in the best interest of society.

Get your checkbooks out friends. You are now paying for my house, my car, and my gas.

Gasp. socialism!

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

It is interesting to read the shift on both boards.

A month or two ago, maybe more, lots of people clamoring to simply "let the market work it out."

Now that it is evident that this thing is a cluster-f of epic proportions, people are finally coming around to realizing that which some of us already knew....that there are times when government intervention is absolutely the right thing to do and that bailing out idiots, despite their stupid behavior, is in the best interest of society.

Get your checkbooks out friends. You are now paying for my house, my car, and my gas.

Gasp. socialism!

Maybe I'm a hypocrite, because I opposed the wall street bailout but support some sort of auto bailout. I see a difference in that wall street caused the mess and now we're bailing them out? Plus, regardless of how many banks go out of business, we're in no danger of losing our insurance, banking, financial services industries. However, we are losing our manufacturing base and we may lose our auto industry. Huge difference IMO.

However, your point is taken. I generally believe in free markets, but it's not my overriding ideology above all else. What I AM for is an strong independent America full of a free prosperous people. I believe manufacturing and the auto industry are cruicial to maintain our prosperity and freedoms and we're losing it gradually.

Here's where I break with the traditional conservative / Wall Street Journal view. They view America is a market, not a country. Losing your auto industry? Losing your manufacturing? No big deal. Our government has hamstrung industry through high taxes and regulation. Our industry is competing against foreign competition with much lower costs and with governments that support their industries. Yet when our auto industy falters, it's all their fault. Government tax, labor, and trade policy has nothing to do with it. Right.

Yes, I reject the cradle to grave welfare state and the many redistributionist policies. But I do believe that our government has the obligation to give it's industries a level playing field in the global marketplace, and they've done NOTHING in that regard. Should we go the protectionist route? I'm not sure. But protectionism dominated our trade policy until the mid-20th century and it grew this country into the greatest economic power in the world. "Free Trade" has resulted in the loss of our manufacturing base and a loss of real wages in the last 30-40 years. I'm simply no longer willing to buy all of Adam Smith hook line and sinker.

How bout a little economic patriotism? Let's give our auto brethren a little help out of the hole. One we all dug.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by Venkman

Maybe I'm a hypocrite, because I opposed the wall street bailout but support some sort of auto bailout. I see a difference in that wall street caused the mess and now we're bailing them out? Plus, regardless of how many banks go out of business, we're in no danger of losing our insurance, banking, financial services industries. However, we are losing our manufacturing base and we may lose our auto industry. Huge difference IMO.

However, your point is taken. I generally believe in free markets, but it's not my overriding ideology above all else. What I AM for is an strong independent America full of a free prosperous people. I believe manufacturing and the auto industry are cruicial to maintain our prosperity and freedoms and we're losing it gradually.

Here's where I break with the traditional conservative / Wall Street Journal view. They view America is a market, not a country. Losing your auto industry? Losing your manufacturing? No big deal. Our government has hamstrung industry through high taxes and regulation. Our industry is competing against foreign competition with much lower costs and with governments that support their industries. Yet when our auto industy falters, it's all their fault. Government tax, labor, and trade policy has nothing to do with it. Right.

Yes, I reject the cradle to grave welfare state and the many redistributionist policies. But I do believe that our government has the obligation to give it's industries a level playing field in the global marketplace, and they've done NOTHING in that regard. Should we go the protectionist route? I'm not sure. But protectionism dominated our trade policy until the mid-20th century and it grew this country into the greatest economic power in the world. "Free Trade" has resulted in the loss of our manufacturing base and a loss of real wages in the last 30-40 years. I'm simply no longer willing to buy all of Adam Smith hook line and sinker.

How bout a little economic patriotism? Let's give our auto brethren a little help out of the hole. One we all dug.

You've got your facts and theory mixed up. Protectionism didn't make US an economic power. And you ignore that the US has become a pharmaceuticals and IT powerhouse under free trade.

Real wages haven't gone down under free trade, they've increased dramatically. Real median wages have remained stagnant, but that's due mostly to technological change and CEO pay, not to trade. Europe has made the same expansion of trade and their median wages are growing at a much faster clip.

Free trade is a no-brainer for all economists. ALL economists. Conservative, liberal, it doesn't matter.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

You've got your facts and theory mixed up. Protectionism didn't make US an economic power. And you ignore that the US has become a pharmaceuticals and IT powerhouse under free trade.

Real wages haven't gone down under free trade, they've increased dramatically. Real median wages have remained stagnant, but that's due mostly to technological change and CEO pay, not to trade. Europe has made the same expansion of trade and their median wages are growing at a much faster clip.

Free trade is a no-brainer for all economists. ALL economists. Conservative, liberal, it doesn't matter.

I figured you'd jump all over that.

[HighHorse]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

It is interesting to read the shift on both boards.

A month or two ago, maybe more, lots of people clamoring to simply "let the market work it out."

Now that it is evident that this thing is a cluster-f of epic proportions,

Gasp. socialism!

I deserve a bailout for my business. I'll even buy a private jet, fly it to Washington, then hop in an electric car and drive it to the Capital if they will give me my bailout.

A couple of hundred million would tickle me pink. I'm not greedy like those fascist bastards in Detroit.

P.S. I need an advance to buy the jet and electric car.

[MikeWaters]

I love the talking heads that are saying bailing out individuals on their homes and mortgages won't create a moral hazard, and won't reward people that are irresponsible, lazy, and corrupt.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

boy you have bought the japanese thought hook line and sinker. GM, Ford and Chrylser make a lot of really great cars. The new cobalt is nice and gets like 35 mpg. I have a 3 year old Mercury Mariner that would go 200k miles if we werent going to trade in for a minivan. Not to mention my 02 saturn that has 100k miles on it and will have very little upkeep.

Whenever I do business in the midwest, I am always impressed by the loyalty of the locals.....you see more American cars there than anywhere else. Everyone driving pontiacs and chevys and mercurys.

performance and reliability have definitely improved with American cars, but have they truly caught up with the Japanese? I know you can drive an Accord for 150K miles without batting an eyelash. Can you do the same with an American counterpart? I honestly don't know.

My beef with the American models is styling. The exteriors are usually very dull. And the interior panels always bug me....it looks like cheap plastic, there are about 3 large knobs to control everything, and the displays are usually unimpressive. The Japanese do a much better job with the paneling and instrumentation.....digital, lots of lights, lots of gadgets, looks like a cockpit. Bells and whistles matter.