Questions on Apostasy - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Valentinus1 · 05-20-2010, 09:13 PM

What makes someone an apostate?

Is it their unwillingness to believe the church's traditionally held beliefs?

Is it someone who chooses to dissent?

From research that I have done the September Six (exceptionally Avraham Gileadi), Margaret Toscano, Janice Allred, Grant Palmer, etc. are considered to be apostates?

Admittedly, Paul Toscano tends to have an antagonizing animosity directed toward the "arrogance, narcissism, and authoritarianism" he believes plagues church leadership. Also, with a bit more disdain toward Packer because of his involvement in Toscano's excommunication and even a little toward Oaks for lying to Steve Benson about Packer's involvement. I don't know the whole situation so I'm only speaking from what Toscano and Benson have said as well as a conversation between Oaks and Benson.

Furthermore, I ask why the disciplines? When reading documents by many of the people listed above, I only see critical analysis of historical accuracy, historical practice/policy vs. modern, explorations in different areas of Mormon theology, etc. History does matter. Just ask James W. Loewen (author of Lies My Teacher Told Me and Lies Across America).

Arrogantly, and I will own up to my use of a negative description, Packer makes the statement that the three greatest threats to the church are feminists, gays/lesbians, and intellectuals to the All Church Coordinating Council in 1993.

You all have been LDS for a much longer time than I have, so I am sure you are more than familiar with what I have discussed. But I am curious and would greatly appreciate fair and objective responses to my questions.

Having experienced MikeWaters, I won't be surprised if he chooses to respond with some form of sarcasm if he so chooses to respond.

MikeWaters · 05-20-2010, 10:14 PM

Someone that attacks a belief or association that they previously held or espoused, in a rancorous way with the intention to undermine and belittle, without respect for the views, feelings, and agency of the believer/associate.

Next question.

Valentinus1 · 05-21-2010, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Someone that attacks a belief or association that they previously held or espoused, in a rancorous way with the intention to undermine and belittle, without respect for the views, feelings, and agency of the believer/associate.

Next question.

This makes sense. Thanks Mike. With the definition you have given, I recognize people who chose to be offended or possibly "evangelized" by Christians. I don't mean to narrow those who fall under the label of apostasy to only these to categories. I'm only going with what I am familiar with.

Mike, have you ever met an apostate that didn't attempt to (after committing apostasy) downtrod the church?

MikeWaters · 05-21-2010, 08:40 PM

Have I met someone who has left the church, doesn't agree with it, yet can be respectful of people who stay? Yes.

05-20-2010, 09:13 PM	#1
Valentinus1 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 95	Questions on Apostasy What makes someone an apostate? Is it their unwillingness to believe the church's traditionally held beliefs? Is it someone who chooses to dissent? From research that I have done the September Six (exceptionally Avraham Gileadi), Margaret Toscano, Janice Allred, Grant Palmer, etc. are considered to be apostates? Admittedly, Paul Toscano tends to have an antagonizing animosity directed toward the "arrogance, narcissism, and authoritarianism" he believes plagues church leadership. Also, with a bit more disdain toward Packer because of his involvement in Toscano's excommunication and even a little toward Oaks for lying to Steve Benson about Packer's involvement. I don't know the whole situation so I'm only speaking from what Toscano and Benson have said as well as a conversation between Oaks and Benson. Furthermore, I ask why the disciplines? When reading documents by many of the people listed above, I only see critical analysis of historical accuracy, historical practice/policy vs. modern, explorations in different areas of Mormon theology, etc. History does matter. Just ask James W. Loewen (author of Lies My Teacher Told Me and Lies Across America). Arrogantly, and I will own up to my use of a negative description, Packer makes the statement that the three greatest threats to the church are feminists, gays/lesbians, and intellectuals to the All Church Coordinating Council in 1993. You all have been LDS for a much longer time than I have, so I am sure you are more than familiar with what I have discussed. But I am curious and would greatly appreciate fair and objective responses to my questions. Having experienced MikeWaters, I won't be surprised if he chooses to respond with some form of sarcasm if he so chooses to respond. __________________ Tradition and Fundamentalism is more often the fear to see greater light and feel enlightenment. When that fear consumes us, we become pawns of a false religion with a false god. -Teresa Moreno Professor of Christian History and Ethics

05-20-2010, 10:14 PM	#2
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Someone that attacks a belief or association that they previously held or espoused, in a rancorous way with the intention to undermine and belittle, without respect for the views, feelings, and agency of the believer/associate. Next question.

05-21-2010, 08:40 PM	#4
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Have I met someone who has left the church, doesn't agree with it, yet can be respectful of people who stay? Yes.