This BYU team might be the best BYU team - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Goatnapper'96 · 11-21-2007, 02:58 PM

since the early 90's. This club might win a game in the NCAA.

1.) Ball movement. Good ball movement is a way to counter an athletic disadvantage. Teams who don't have athletes fall apart if they dribble the ball around a lot and depend upon one on one matchups. That was often Cleve's system. I am interested if BYU is careful enough to take care of the ball better against more athletic teams, but last night when BYU was trying I saw numerous times that BYU went from defensive rebound to offensive set to basket, often with 25 seconds or less left on the shot clock, without the ball touching the floor more than twice. The spacing and offensive understanding is impressive. They don't set the picks that a Majerus coached team did, but they are well coached on the offensive end. It helps a lot to have so many scorers.

2.) Depth. I think Fredette and Collinsworth might be everything Cummard and Plaisted were two years ago. The difference is that the talent level is higher and they will not get prominent roles. Those are two very good basketball players. Collinsworth is more athletic than Keena Young. He might not develop into the offensive threat Keena was last year, but he is a very good player. He handles the ball better than Keena and is a much better on the ball defender as a freshman. He also is as good a rebounder and Keena was a very good rebounder, he was just a bit undersized for a 4. Fredette is no Mike Rose. Period. The kid is probably the second best pure offensive player on the team behind Tavernari, and he might be the best. Honestly. He is a pure scorer and will be a huge boost off the bench. Further, neither Miles nor Vuk are stars but they both are decent subs and the beauty is that Miles will improve with more experience. I expect by the latter half of conference play, Vuk never takes his sweats off. Michael Lloyd concerns me but my guess is come conference play Murdock will be playing 30+ minutes. Further, while Lloyd is developing as a pg, he is not an athletic liability. So his offensive execution might struggle he shouldn't be a defensive liability.

3.) Trent Plaisted is improved from last year. He is more comfortable in the post. He is a better passer. He appears to understand the game better and he has a bigger array of moves. He also tries harder on defense.

4.) Tavernari is going to be good...this year. He is so confident, smooth and is showing some post capability with his turnaround jumpshot. He is also such a good passer. I would prefer the offense to go through him for mostly that reason. He understands the game so well.

5.) Cummard is developing more of a killer instinct on offense. I like after he had that shitty minute and a half where he had a dumb foul and a turnover, he comes down and nails a 3. While he is not the go to guy, he must be respected and he can score. He just lets the game come to him the others score.

6.) This is the Sam Burgess I thought BYU was recruiting. Tough kid, good leader and can hit the open 3. I like his steadying influence.

7.) Murdock is a solid pg, but I think it has to do with the coach using an offensive system that recognizes pg is the position BYU struggles most to find adequate players. Runnutz called Murdock as a perfect pick up for BYU when the Y recruited him. That was a very good call on his part.

Friday will be a very telling game about what athletic teams can do to disrupt BYU's offensive flow and execution. I like the ball movement, but I wonder how well the Y can move it without screens against a team like Louisiville.

Insensitive PAP · 11-21-2007, 06:18 PM

The impressive thing about Tavernari is he can score from literally anywhere. He doesn't have a 'spot' that he tries to get to. If he's open, the ball is going up and in. He has deep range, midrange, hooks shots, scoop shots, he finishes, everything.

I'm not saying he's Larry Bird, because he's too small for that, but he has that type of understanding. Maybe a Jeff Hornacek type. He'll always exceed his athleticism because he knows how to play the game and he's a threat every time he touches the ball.

smokymountainrain · 11-21-2007, 08:27 PM

Re: Tavernari...Last night's game was only the second time I've seen him play (the first being the conference championship game against UNLV) so my sample size is not the greatest, but oh well.

He's a strong, wide bodied 6'6" but it looks like he's always wanting to drift to the perimeter. He even posted up a couple times last night and rather than take it at the smaller defender, he faded away (I'm not a Matt Harpring fan, but as a player with a similar skill set and body type, Tav could learn some things from watching Harpring play). These are characteristics of a soft offensive player. I'd like to see him use his big body to go strong to the basket, draw some fouls and get layups rather than always drifting outside.

My other issues with Tavernari...he looks weak defensively. Doesn't seem to move laterally very well and doesn't make plays on defense(blocks, steals).

Based on what I've seen, he has very little ability to put the ball on the floor. Play him tight and you can pretty much take him out of the game - this happened against UNLV and he was a non-factor in that loss.

What he can do is shoot. He's a shooter, not a scorer. He appears to have a soft touch and unlimited range. Looks to be a decent rebounder and I haven't seen enough in terms of his passing to make a judgement. He reminds me of a smaller, poor man's Memo Okur.

I thought UNLV shut him down with ease using good athletes who were able to stay close to him, force him to put it on the floor (which he can't do) and get a hand in the face. I think the Louisville game and some of the other games against tough early season competition will tell us a lot about him and how much he's improved in these areas.

While I'm not all that impressed with Tavernari, he is just a few games into his sophomore season so I should probably cut him some slack.

Insensitive PAP · 11-21-2007, 08:43 PM

Great, you've seen him play twice and you can write 7 paragraphs on him which include that he can't put it on the floor (wrong), that he's not a scorer (wrong), that he's a wide body (wrong). You saw him play a grand total of 11 minutes last year and you saw him go for 16 in 27 minutes last night, but oh well. . .

smokymountainrain · 11-21-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insensitive PAP

Great, you've seen him play twice and you can write 7 paragraphs on him which include that he can't put it on the floor (wrong), that he's not a scorer (wrong), that he's a wide body (wrong). You saw him play a grand total of 11 minutes last year and you saw him go for 16 in 27 minutes last night, but oh well. . .

if he can put it on the floor and if he's more than just a shooter, I'm excited to actually seen him show those things in some games. I appreciate the insight of somebody who has seen him more than I have and as a BYU fan this is very encouraging.

I can't wait for the Louisville game.

jay santos · 11-21-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokymountainrain

Re: Tavernari...Last night's game was only the second time I've seen him play (the first being the conference championship game against UNLV) so my sample size is not the greatest, but oh well.

He's a strong, wide bodied 6'6" but it looks like he's always wanting to drift to the perimeter. He even posted up a couple times last night and rather than take it at the smaller defender, he faded away (I'm not a Matt Harpring fan, but as a player with a similar skill set and body type, Tav could learn some things from watching Harpring play). These are characteristics of a soft offensive player. I'd like to see him use his big body to go strong to the basket, draw some fouls and get layups rather than always drifting outside.

My other issues with Tavernari...he looks weak defensively. Doesn't seem to move laterally very well and doesn't make plays on defense(blocks, steals).

Based on what I've seen, he has very little ability to put the ball on the floor. Play him tight and you can pretty much take him out of the game - this happened against UNLV and he was a non-factor in that loss.

What he can do is shoot. He's a shooter, not a scorer. He appears to have a soft touch and unlimited range. Looks to be a decent rebounder and I haven't seen enough in terms of his passing to make a judgement. He reminds me of a smaller, poor man's Memo Okur.

I thought UNLV shut him down with ease using good athletes who were able to stay close to him, force him to put it on the floor (which he can't do) and get a hand in the face. I think the Louisville game and some of the other games against tough early season competition will tell us a lot about him and how much he's improved in these areas.

While I'm not all that impressed with Tavernari, he is just a few games into his sophomore season so I should probably cut him some slack.

I mostly agree with your assessment. He's a shooter. However he is a very smart player and a very sneaky offensive player. He doesn't have a power game, and he can't beat you with the dribble, but he's sneaky enough that he can keep the defense guessing. He's money on his turnaround jumper, and then he has a nifty little fake the shot, up and under move. So, his craftiness combined with his shooting create a pretty strong combination as a college offensive scorer.

He's a terrible perimeter defender but he's skilled enough to use his body, he's crafty enough to slap at the right time to get some steals, and he's a pretty good rebounder.

Basically, I agree with your assessment, but he's smart enough and skilled enough that he can combine his shooting and his size and other smarts into a total package to where his potential is not NBA but he can be a great college player.

smokymountainrain · 11-21-2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos

I mostly agree with your assessment. He's a shooter. However he is a very smart player and a very sneaky offensive player. He doesn't have a power game, and he can't beat you with the dribble, but he's sneaky enough that he can keep the defense guessing. He's money on his turnaround jumper, and then he has a nifty little fake the shot, up and under move. So, his craftiness combined with his shooting create a pretty strong combination as a college offensive scorer.

He's a terrible perimeter defender but he's skilled enough to use his body, he's crafty enough to slap at the right time to get some steals, and he's a pretty good rebounder.

Basically, I agree with your assessment, but he's smart enough and skilled enough that he can combine his shooting and his size and other smarts into a total package to where his potential is not NBA but he can be a great college player.

thanks for the comments. Even though you generally agree with my assessment, you've pointed out some things I wasn't aware of and I will definitely be looking for some of those things in the upcoming games. I hate early season college basketball because the competition is usually so bad it's hard to get an accurate read on anything.

For PAP and other sensitive posters like him, I admitted that I've only seen two games for a reason - I'm only calling it like I've seen it in those two games. If I'm wrong about him, that's great.

K-dog · 11-21-2007, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokymountainrain

thanks for the comments. Even though you generally agree with my assessment, you've pointed out some things I wasn't aware of and I will definitely be looking for some of those things in the upcoming games. I hate early season college basketball because the competition is usually so bad it's hard to get an accurate read on anything.

For PAP and other sensitive posters like him, I admitted that I've only seen two games for a reason - I'm only calling it like I've seen it in those two games. If I'm wrong about him, that's great.

I think Jay is right about Tav. He is crafty and uses his quick release to make up for his lack of quicks. He will score often in college.

smokymountainrain · 11-21-2007, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-dog

I think Jay is right about Tav. He is crafty and uses his quick release to make up for his lack of quicks. He will score often in college.

One aspect of his game I didn't give him credit for - and I should have - was his quick release. That quick release is a huge weapon for a guy who doesn't have great quickness.

Chris Mullin made a career out of being crafty, having an accurate jumpshot and one of the quickest releases I've ever seen.

jay santos · 11-21-2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokymountainrain

One aspect of his game I didn't give him credit for - and I should have - was his quick release. That quick release is a huge weapon for a guy who doesn't have great quickness.

Chris Mullin made a career out of being crafty, having an accurate jumpshot and one of the quickest releases I've ever seen.

PAP's Larry Bird comparison is not a bad one. Bird never beat anyone with a power post up game or with an athletic perimeter dribble move. Same with JT. He's a poor man's Larry Bird at the college level.

11-21-2007, 02:58 PM	#1
Goatnapper'96 Recruiting Coordinator/Bosom Inspector Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,412	This BYU team might be the best BYU team since the early 90's. This club might win a game in the NCAA. 1.) Ball movement. Good ball movement is a way to counter an athletic disadvantage. Teams who don't have athletes fall apart if they dribble the ball around a lot and depend upon one on one matchups. That was often Cleve's system. I am interested if BYU is careful enough to take care of the ball better against more athletic teams, but last night when BYU was trying I saw numerous times that BYU went from defensive rebound to offensive set to basket, often with 25 seconds or less left on the shot clock, without the ball touching the floor more than twice. The spacing and offensive understanding is impressive. They don't set the picks that a Majerus coached team did, but they are well coached on the offensive end. It helps a lot to have so many scorers. 2.) Depth. I think Fredette and Collinsworth might be everything Cummard and Plaisted were two years ago. The difference is that the talent level is higher and they will not get prominent roles. Those are two very good basketball players. Collinsworth is more athletic than Keena Young. He might not develop into the offensive threat Keena was last year, but he is a very good player. He handles the ball better than Keena and is a much better on the ball defender as a freshman. He also is as good a rebounder and Keena was a very good rebounder, he was just a bit undersized for a 4. Fredette is no Mike Rose. Period. The kid is probably the second best pure offensive player on the team behind Tavernari, and he might be the best. Honestly. He is a pure scorer and will be a huge boost off the bench. Further, neither Miles nor Vuk are stars but they both are decent subs and the beauty is that Miles will improve with more experience. I expect by the latter half of conference play, Vuk never takes his sweats off. Michael Lloyd concerns me but my guess is come conference play Murdock will be playing 30+ minutes. Further, while Lloyd is developing as a pg, he is not an athletic liability. So his offensive execution might struggle he shouldn't be a defensive liability. 3.) Trent Plaisted is improved from last year. He is more comfortable in the post. He is a better passer. He appears to understand the game better and he has a bigger array of moves. He also tries harder on defense. 4.) Tavernari is going to be good...this year. He is so confident, smooth and is showing some post capability with his turnaround jumpshot. He is also such a good passer. I would prefer the offense to go through him for mostly that reason. He understands the game so well. 5.) Cummard is developing more of a killer instinct on offense. I like after he had that shitty minute and a half where he had a dumb foul and a turnover, he comes down and nails a 3. While he is not the go to guy, he must be respected and he can score. He just lets the game come to him the others score. 6.) This is the Sam Burgess I thought BYU was recruiting. Tough kid, good leader and can hit the open 3. I like his steadying influence. 7.) Murdock is a solid pg, but I think it has to do with the coach using an offensive system that recognizes pg is the position BYU struggles most to find adequate players. Runnutz called Murdock as a perfect pick up for BYU when the Y recruited him. That was a very good call on his part. Friday will be a very telling game about what athletic teams can do to disrupt BYU's offensive flow and execution. I like the ball movement, but I wonder how well the Y can move it without screens against a team like Louisiville. __________________ She had a psychiatrist who said because I didn't trust the water system, the school system, the government, I was paranoid," he said. "I had a psychiatrist who said her psychiatrist was stupid."

11-21-2007, 08:27 PM	#3
smokymountainrain Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Eastern Salt Lake County Posts: 544	Re: Tavernari...Last night's game was only the second time I've seen him play (the first being the conference championship game against UNLV) so my sample size is not the greatest, but oh well. He's a strong, wide bodied 6'6" but it looks like he's always wanting to drift to the perimeter. He even posted up a couple times last night and rather than take it at the smaller defender, he faded away (I'm not a Matt Harpring fan, but as a player with a similar skill set and body type, Tav could learn some things from watching Harpring play). These are characteristics of a soft offensive player. I'd like to see him use his big body to go strong to the basket, draw some fouls and get layups rather than always drifting outside. My other issues with Tavernari...he looks weak defensively. Doesn't seem to move laterally very well and doesn't make plays on defense(blocks, steals). Based on what I've seen, he has very little ability to put the ball on the floor. Play him tight and you can pretty much take him out of the game - this happened against UNLV and he was a non-factor in that loss. What he can do is shoot. He's a shooter, not a scorer. He appears to have a soft touch and unlimited range. Looks to be a decent rebounder and I haven't seen enough in terms of his passing to make a judgement. He reminds me of a smaller, poor man's Memo Okur. I thought UNLV shut him down with ease using good athletes who were able to stay close to him, force him to put it on the floor (which he can't do) and get a hand in the face. I think the Louisville game and some of the other games against tough early season competition will tell us a lot about him and how much he's improved in these areas. While I'm not all that impressed with Tavernari, he is just a few games into his sophomore season so I should probably cut him some slack. Last edited by smokymountainrain; 11-21-2007 at 08:35 PM.

11-21-2007, 06:18 PM	#2
Insensitive PAP Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 293	The impressive thing about Tavernari is he can score from literally anywhere. He doesn't have a 'spot' that he tries to get to. If he's open, the ball is going up and in. He has deep range, midrange, hooks shots, scoop shots, he finishes, everything. I'm not saying he's Larry Bird, because he's too small for that, but he has that type of understanding. Maybe a Jeff Hornacek type. He'll always exceed his athleticism because he knows how to play the game and he's a threat every time he touches the ball.

11-21-2007, 08:43 PM	#4
Insensitive PAP Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 293	Great, you've seen him play twice and you can write 7 paragraphs on him which include that he can't put it on the floor (wrong), that he's not a scorer (wrong), that he's a wide body (wrong). You saw him play a grand total of 11 minutes last year and you saw him go for 16 in 27 minutes last night, but oh well. . .