Speech still resounds

[Archaea]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...249373,00.html

[Jeff Lebowski]

Thanks for posting that. I think the Des News has come a long way. Not too many years ago, an in-depth article on a topic such as that would have been unthinkable.

Also, I found this quote quite interesting:

She said she believes Sister Beck's talk created a flash point that focused on her as a person, "rather than critiquing the underlying system." She said the backlash "reflects the idea thatit's more acceptable to question women's authority than men's in the church."

What do you think? Would there have been such a backlash had one of the Quorum of the 12 given that talk?

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

What do you think? Would there have been such a backlash had one of the Quorum of the 12 given that talk?

I doubt it. I think Toscano makes a good point. If this came from Tommy Monson, people would discuss it, but probably be more circumspect about criticizing it. I don't hear the same type of uproar about Oaks' "it's wrong to criticize . . . even when that criticism is correct" quote, and I find that much more incendiary.

I find it pretty interesting how many of these objections to Beck's talk are rooted in the individual's perceived differences with a generalized statement. It's a complicated issue, to be sure, and I'll never be a mother or deal directly with the pressures of life, career, motherhood, and church (although as a husband and a father I deal indirectly with them all the time). But it's okay to have individual experiences that deviate from a generalized ideal (at least, I think so).

I imagine the tension emerges in that gray area where a bunch of individuals becomes anything like a perceived collective experience or identity. Essentially, everyone must be self-referential here, and most people want the actions that they undertook in good conscience ratified by authority. Everyone seems to want the guy or gal in charge to back them up, even if their experience in reality is quite different from the norm. It's ultimately a quite selfish and self-centered approach.

I can't see how this will be resolved.

[Gidget]

I think if I would have heard this talk while it was happening (I only learned about it in the crazy aftermath), I still would have been confused. Maybe not totally offended, but certainly thoughtful, and maybe even saddened. I joined the Church when I was 17, and ended up getting pregnant, having, and keeping my daughter at 22. I attended my local singles ward (even with the obvious Scarlet Letter across my growing belly). And was actively involved in church and the repentance process - but still struggling to find my place in the "map of motherhood" later outlined by Sister Beck. I have to admit, although my ward was more than understanding and loving (which I feel is a direct result of geography - i.e. McMinnville, OR vs. Provo, UT) now that I am married in the temple and Surfah and I were both sealed to OUR daughter on that day, I do feel more accepted just because I remedied my situation with the "right" medicine: marriage/stay-at-home mom serum. I often wonder if I was still a working single mother active in the church how I would feel about my role, or lack thereof. I feel for the women in this place- those who don't fit perfectly into the "map of motherhood", because I have been there.

[Gidget]

And I think I would have felt the same if Monson or Hinckley had given that talk. It's important to address paths that stray from the formula, and I think in this case those paths weren't focused on enough.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by Gidget

I think if I would have heard this talk while it was happening (I only learned about it in the crazy aftermath), I still would have been confused. Maybe not totally offended, but certainly thoughtful, and maybe even saddened. I joined the Church when I was 17, and ended up getting pregnant, having, and keeping my daughter at 22. I attended my local singles ward (even with the obvious Scarlet Letter across my growing belly). And was actively involved in church and the repentance process - but still struggling to find my place in the "map of motherhood" later outlined by Sister Beck. I have to admit, although my ward was more than understanding and loving (which I feel is a direct result of geography - i.e. McMinnville, OR vs. Provo, UT) now that I am married in the temple and Surfah and I were both sealed to OUR daughter on that day, I do feel more accepted just because I remedied my situation with the "right" medicine: marriage/stay-at-home mom serum. I often wonder if I was still a working single mother active in the church how I would feel about my role, or lack thereof. I feel for the women in this place- those who don't fit perfectly into the "map of motherhood", because I have been there.

My wife went through the same thing - except she was born into the church - she went away to school (the U - imagine that!) got pregnant and kept her daughter (now our daughter). She graduated and came back to her home ward as a single mom.

She gave a talk yesterday about the parable of the lost sheep. One of the points she wanted to make in the talk was that the lost sheep needed help and support, and not judgment. Her comment to me (but she didn't want to include it in her talk) was that she did not feel support from the ward, and essentially had to go through it all alone. Fortunately she had a wonderful bishop and supportive family. But the ward as a whole was much less supportive.

We're actually still in the ward, and it's a great ward (somehow marrying a divorced guy helped her stock), so we can't say that it's an unusually unsupportive or judgmental ward.

I think the church is a church of the majority - the unconventional and the unusual are not sought out, I think, by the church as an organization, in the absence of an assurance of conformity.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by grapevine

There have been times when BRM and ETB talked at byu a steam of calls came into church headquarters. IF someone besides them gave those talks it would of been less controversial. YOu can tell a man by his enemies. I don't think apostate mormons are very good sounding boards for what goes on in the church though like toscono. Beck keeps her baptism and temple covenants Toscona broke hers. I would rather listen to a covenant keeper than a covenant breaker.

Let's make it very clear how Toscano is a "covenant-breaker"--she disagreed with church leadership on the role of women, a fairly courageous stand, if she's expressing her true feelings and beliefs. You can call her apostate if you want, but don't attack her integrity.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Let's make it very clear how Toscano is a "covenant-breaker"--she disagreed with church leadership on the role of women, a fairly courageous stand, if she's expressing her true feelings and beliefs. You can call her apostate if you want, but don't attack her integrity.

ERCougar takes grapevine seriously.

[exUte]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Let's make it very clear how Toscano is a "covenant-breaker"--she disagreed with church leadership on the role of women, a fairly courageous stand, if she's expressing her true feelings and beliefs. You can call her apostate if you want, but don't attack her integrity.

She is not a covenant breaker because she disagreed with church leadership. Do you this crap up and not expect to be called on it. You need to visit Paul Harvey to get the 'rest of the story' on Toscano.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by exUte

She is not a covenant breaker because she disagreed with church leadership. Do you this crap up and not expect to be called on it. You need to visit Paul Harvey to get the 'rest of the story' on Toscano.

Pray tell...what is the rest of the story? I didn't realize you, Grapevine, and Toscano were so tight...