saving ourselves

[MikeWaters]

I've been thinking about this recently. I think the Mormon view of the atonement is that it gets us to the "salvation is possible". In other words, it gets us to the very bottom wrung of the salvation ladder. And from then on, salvation is largely up to us. How much service you do, your temple work, how you treated your family, did you do your geneaology, did you serve in callings, and all the other things that tend to make up a Mormon religious life. It feels a little bit like going for the baseball Hall of Fame. What were your stats? How many homeruns? What was your ERA? How long did you sustain your high performance?

At the end of the day, a life well-lived is because of our own efforts, and that life well-lived gets us into heaven (thanks to Jesus who made it possible).

This is so very different from other Christians who believe that Christ's atonement/sacrifice gets us up a lot higher than that bottom wrung. It's almost as if being on the ladder is the important thing, not how high you climb it.

hence their worship services center around praising Christ, and our worship services center around how you can live a better Mormon life.

it's an interesting contradiction.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I've been thinking about this recently. I think the Mormon view of the atonement is that it gets us to the "salvation is possible". In other words, it gets us to the very bottom wrung of the salvation ladder. And from then on, salvation is largely up to us. How much service you do, your temple work, how you treated your family, did you do your geneaology, did you serve in callings, and all the other things that tend to make up a Mormon religious life. It feels a little bit like going for the baseball Hall of Fame. What were your stats? How many homeruns? What was your ERA? How long did you sustain your high performance?

At the end of the day, a life well-lived is because of our own efforts, and that life well-lived gets us into heaven (thanks to Jesus who made it possible).

This is so very different from other Christians who believe that Christ's atonement/sacrifice gets us up a lot higher than that bottom wrung. It's almost as if being on the ladder is the important thing, not how high you climb it.

hence their worship services center around praising Christ, and our worship services center around how you can live a better Mormon life.

it's an interesting contradiction.

This is a complete mischaracterization of Mormon doctrine. No wonder we have such clashes around here.

First, I would invert your analogy (although I'm not sure I care for it either way). Our efforts get us to the "bottom rung" and then the atonement takes us the rest of the way, not the other way around.

Second, it is most certainly NOT about "stats" ... about what you have done. It is about who you have become. Works are a vehicle to that end. I've often thought we ought to think less of the celestial kingdom as a physical place, and more about what it means to be a celestial person.

Third, our worship services center around Jesus, not around lifestyle. I cannot comprehend how someone could attend a church service and not get that out of it. We can always do a better job, but there's no question in my mind that the church has a strong and clear emphasis on the life and mission of the Savior.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

This is a complete mischaracterization of Mormon doctrine. No wonder we have such clashes around here.

First, I would invert your analogy (although I'm not sure I care for it either way). Our efforts get us to the "bottom rung" and then the atonement takes us the rest of the way, not the other way around.

Second, it is most certainly NOT about "stats" ... about what you have done. It is about who you have become. Works are a vehicle to that end. I've often thought we ought to think less of the celestial kingdom as a physical place, and more about what it means to be a celestial person.

Third, our worship services center around Jesus, not around lifestyle. I cannot comprehend how someone could attend a church service and not get that out of it. We can always do a better job, but there's no question in my mind that the church has a strong and clear emphasis on the life and mission of the Savior.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, if you're saying this is your personal belief.

I'm saying that if someone walked into Mormon services and attended for a few years, what I said is more likely to be what they think Mormons believe.

I think Mormons believe that Jesus redeems their works which gets them to heaven. Without Jesus the works woudln't be redeemed and would be useless. But with Jesus, you CAN work yourself into heaven.

I've almost, Tex, never heard anyone talk in the language of "becoming" someone through the atonement. You can see how easily "becoming" someone could be turned into "saved by grace" or "transformed by grace" and that would be anathema.

[MikeWaters]

Along these lines, I've argued that up until maybe abotu 30 years ago, we were "The Church of the Restoration". That is, the focus was on Joseph Smith, the First Vision, and the BoM. Since then, there has been a move away from focusing so much on the Restoration, and instead focusing on Christ.

But what is not yet apparently is if this focus will impact the traditional "works" view of being saved (or in Mormon parlance "obtaining eternal life").

To be honest, it's been uncommon for me to hear a talk that is purely Christ-centered OR restoration-centered in sacrament meeting. Most talks are about gospel topics that tangentially might touch upon Christ or the restoration. But I don't know if this is just my congregation, or perhaps a biased recollection.

[JohnnyLingo]

I think the horse just twitched.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I'm saying that if someone walked into Mormon services and attended for a few years, what I said is more likely to be what they think Mormons believe.

...

To be honest, it's been uncommon for me to hear a talk that is purely Christ-centered OR restoration-centered in sacrament meeting. Most talks are about gospel topics that tangentially might touch upon Christ or the restoration. But I don't know if this is just my congregation, or perhaps a biased recollection.

No, you're right, if you open your priesthood manual, it doesn't have 24 lessons all entitled "Jesus Christ." Neither is every sacrament meeting speaker given "Jesus Christ" as his topic. But every topic, be it temple work or missionary work or service or preparedness, centers around the doctrine of the atonement. If not every member makes that specifically clear in each talk and lesson, then we can work on it. But that doesn't make the atonement less a foundation doctrine.

I think Mormons believe that Jesus redeems their works which gets them to heaven. Without Jesus the works woudln't be redeemed and would be useless. But with Jesus, you CAN work yourself into heaven.

And I say you misunderstand the doctrine.

I've almost, Tex, never heard anyone talk in the language of "becoming" someone through the atonement. You can see how easily "becoming" someone could be turned into "saved by grace" or "transformed by grace" and that would be anathema.

It is one of the most fundamental doctrines of the church. If you're being serious and not just playing with me, then it genuinely disturbs me that this doctrine has escaped your understanding.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

No, you're right, if you open your priesthood manual, it doesn't have 24 lessons all entitled "Jesus Christ." Neither is every sacrament meeting speaker given "Jesus Christ" as his topic. But every topic, be it temple work or missionary work or service or preparedness, centers around the doctrine of the atonement. If not every member makes that specifically clear in each talk and lesson, then we can work on it. But that doesn't make the atonement less a foundation doctrine.



And I say you misunderstand the doctrine.



It is one the most fundamental doctrines of the church. If you're being serious and not just playing with me, then it genuinely disturbs me that this doctrine has escaped your understanding.

I'm not talking about my own (often heterodox) beliefs. I'm talking about what I observe around me.

[Indy Coug]

We're a church of covenants. Those covenants entail obedience. Obedience is not some static, inert attitude of accepting Christ as our Savior; it's one of action and believing that action will help transform us into more Christ-like individuals, aka "charity". A desire to become more Christ-like is not a "I'm better than others" mentality because that's obviously not a charitable attitude. A lack of transformation, or conversion, puts us in a place where our exaltation is in doubt.

Where that line of demarcation exists, we can't say, but I think it's perfectly clear from church doctrine that we are obligated to keep our covenants to receive the blessings that God promises us.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I'm not talking about my own (often heterodox) beliefs. I'm talking about what I observe around me.

I might argue that your "heterodoxy" is unduly influencing your observations.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

We're a church of covenants. Those covenants entail obedience. Obedience is not some static, inert attitude of accepting Christ as our Savior; it's one of action and believing that action will help transform us into more Christ-like individuals, aka "charity". A desire to become more Christ-like is not a "I'm better than others" mentality because that's obviously not a charitable attitude. A lack of transformation, or conversion, puts us in a place where our exaltation is in doubt.

Where that line of demarcation exists, we can't say, but I think it's perfectly clear from church doctrine that we are obligated to keep our covenants to receive the blessings that God promises us.

right. keeping covenants is an active process, i.e. climbing the ladder.