Question for AaronShaf

[TheSizzle36]

Would you mind defining "Salvation" for me. Not a copy and paste of something else, but to you, what does it mean to be "saved"? What are we being saved from and what is required to BE saved.

TIA.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

Would you mind defining "Salvation" for me. Not a copy and paste of something else, but to you, what does it mean to be "saved"? What are we being saved from and what is required to BE saved.

TIA.

My view of how Christian doctrine fits with LDS doctrine is that their view of salvation is very similar to our view of post-earth and pre-resurrection life. They belive in going to a heaven or hell--and they get it from the bible. So do we, and we get it from the bible too, but we usually call it paradise and spirit prison, and we know it to be a holding place until we pass through the resurrection, judgement and are glorified into one of the three kingdoms.

I like to say that Christian doctrine is nearly 100% compatible with LDS doctrine, but only if you limit it to +-10,000 years or so. What happened before that and after that, we differ on, but then they don't have much to say on any of that stuff, other than they think we're wrong. And I also think maybe we don't understand it as well as we think we do. It's not as vital to what we're doing right now, and therefore much of the "revelations" on the subject are speculative in nature and not discussed commonly in general conference and official church publications.

[aaronshaf]

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

Would you mind defining "Salvation" for me. Not a copy and paste of something else, but to you, what does it mean to be "saved"? What are we being saved from and what is required to BE saved.

TIA.

I'm assuming you don't want me to quote the words of someone else. I'm going to quote my own words from something I have personally been working on at one of my wiki's:

Man's condition

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Apart from Christ, we are "weak" and "ungodly" (5:6), "sinners" (5:8), under the coming "wrath of God" (5:9), "enemies" of God in need of "reconciliation" and salvation (5:10), under the "judgment" and reigning "death" that followed Adam's "one tresspass" (5:16-17), "enslaved to sin" (6:6, 16-17, 20), presenting our "members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness" (6:19), "of the flesh, sold under sin" (7:14), having "nothing good" dwelling in our flesh (7:18), having bodies "of death" in need of deliverance (7:24), "hostile to God" (8:7), the fruit and wages of which are death and condemnation (6:21,23; 8:1).

"[W]hile we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death." (7:5)

Coming judgment

"It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." (Hebrews 9:27) Apart from Christ, we are "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (Ephesians 2:3) Those with "hard and impenitent heart[s]... are storing up wrath for [themselves] on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:5) "[F]or those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil..." (2:8-9) "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

Initial salvation

Initial salvation refers to the event of a person's conversion. If you repent of your sin and turn in faith to Christ as Lord and Savior, your sins are immediately forgiven, your fight of faith has begun, and your future in Christ is secured forever. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13) "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:3-7)

Progressive salvation

Progressive salvation refers to the journey of a believer between conversion and death. It is the only path that leads to eternal life (Romans 6:20-23), and is walked by faith alone, in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8, Galatians 3:2-5). It contains bumps and struggles and setbacks, but is marked by growth in love for others and for God. It involves a fight of faith, a striving for peace and holiness (Hebrews 12:14, 1 John 1:9), and a constant approach of the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16). "[O]ur Lord Jesus Christ... will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:7-9)

Final salvation

(I'm still working on filling this section out.) Final salvation refers to the event of God saving his people at the final judgment, the great divide between sheep and goats, wherein sheep are identified by their work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in the Lord Jesus Christ, and accepted on the ground of their union with Christ, the righteous substitute.

Results of salvation

(I haven't filled in this section yet, so this is new:) Believers will ever-increasingly enjoy the intrinsic glory of God, both directly and indirectly as we commune with God and commune in fellowship with other people who are ever-increasingly enjoying God and the creation that he provided.

In a sense, I believe in "theosis" without limits. Believers will forever be increasing in the knowledge of and enjoyment of the infinite, personal God.

Grace and peace in Christ, who justifies the ungodly like me (Romans 4:4-8),

Aaron

[Dan]

So, "initial salvation" in calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation does not mean "final salvation" is obtained because one must generally struggle through the refining fire of "progressive salvation"?

That sounds incredible similar to LDS soteriology and theology in that we must all call upon the Lord in faith for salvation, which is followed by the token of such faith by entering into the waters of baptism (read: "initial salvation").

No matter what we ever do in this life (i.e., any righteous works we may boast of) it is completely insignificant in actually securing our salvation, as the only way we can obtain salvation is be the grace of the Lord who, alone, has power to save us from our sins, as our sins create a chasm infinitely too wide for our own good works to fill in. So no matter what we do, we are completely dependent upon the Lord. Of course, as you said, after "initial salvation" there is a life long struggle of faith. This is what LDS folk talk about as it being necessary for us to live in faith. If we live in faith, good works will abound from such, as 'by their fruits, ye shall know them.' In other words, those who exercise faith in this life long battle of faith, will generally show forth 'good fruit.' Again, such 'good fruit' in no way enables you to save yourself, nor does it require the cosmos to grant you salvation. (read: progressive salvation)

After the life long battle of faith through "progressive salvation", it is up to the Lord to save us as He will. Of course, we have faith that He is not arbitrary and capricious in granting salvation, and He has left us guidelines to follow and has promised salvation to those who live up to those guidelines (i.e., to those who love God and their fellow man with all their heart and who keep the commandments). Ultimately God will be able to judge who has truly lived in faith as required, as we on earth can often mis-judge others and mis-judge the kind of 'fruit' their lives produce. But we have faith that God will not mis-judge. (read: final salvation)

[Goatnapper'96]

every good thread needs at least one gratuitous reference to man made jubilees. Long live that Alotta Fagina bird and her pontoon boat like bodacious ta-tas. Them hooters floated. I am sure there is a Monty Python similarity in here somewhere.

That is all and this thread has been blessed......

[All-American]

Aaron, no response to my boardmail?

[aaronshaf]

All-American, I didn't even realize there was board mail. I just repied.